Koi winter bedroom

[Dave in Innisfil]

Our main pond, where all our fish winter, has a 4.5' deep centre trough, approximately 2' X 5'. Currently, it is almost barren of planters and stands, with minimal silt and debris on the bottom. It's just a big empty hole in the bottom of pond. Should I leave it that way, or do koi prefer "furniture" ?

What sort of physical wintering environment is best for the fish ?

[Jackie Ramo]

I'd just leave it alone. The ice will cover them and keep the water warmer. Mine have no furniture or cover. At that depth they don't need to worry about preditors either.

[Ian]

I have noticed that our koi would spread out along the deep end bottom and not clustered together like they are trying to keep each other warm. I Don't believe they are capable of heating each other up. The heat that comes from the earth is what they seek when the pond freezes over. My digital thermometer would show a full degree warmer sitting on the bottom than an inch above. So my opinion would be to insure that all your fish have room to stretch their fins out at the deepest part of the pond to take in what little heat available.

[Jackie Ramo]

I'm surprised Ian that your temps show a difference, mine never have. Same temp at the surface as below, but a bit cooler in the skimmer when its running.

[Dave in Innisfil]

I was hoping I wasn't going to have to build an underwater reef for our fish to winter around. Leaving the trough empty means I can use my pool leaf catcher which attaches to a garden hose to do my final clean-up of our deep centre. The amount of leaves that collect on our net daily is incredible, and those that avoid the net tend to sink quickly and gravitate towards the centre. Right now we're having the best visability of our season (post-pond relining), and I can see every little pebble and dead leaf in the deepest spots.
The fish aren't moving much these days since I stopped feeding them entirely last weekend. They don't "huddle" together, but are scattered throughout our pond at different depths.

[Jackie Ramo]

Mine have slowed down and are also at different depths, who knows where the babies all disappeared to but I only see a couple of the 30+ I know are there. None ore on the bottom as yet but as temps get into the mid 40F you'll find they go deep and stay there. Mine are still foraging around the edges and the plants now and again.

Did some of the clean up yesterday and a water change. More still to do, keep hoping for that sunny day....

[Merlin]

Well we have had the warmest October 27th for 126 years, so the fish are still liverly and hungry :). They have predicted a colder winter for this year, but not when it is going to start. !dude

[Jackie Ramo]

They said we'd have a warm October but that was the first week since then its been more like November. Only 2C this morning, way below normal temps so hardly a warm October. Maybe they meant you Merline

[Dave in Innisfil]

We woke up to minus temps this morning, but our crystal-ball gazing weatherman is predicting mid-teen temps for the weekend. Still to be retreived is our main pond pump, but at least I had the sense to move it to the 3' level from the deep centre, loosened the piping clamps and attached a floating buoy to the handle. With even the remote chance of it freezing, I'm opting to remove it than risk having to replace or repair it in the spring. I

I've given up trying to repair the spill-overs from bog to the main pond for this season. The PVC liner has gotten too brittle, and attempts to patch the rips and tears has met mixed success, with absolute failure where it's needed most. The guinea-pig goldies I put back into the bog didn't last long, and at this point I'm not even caring what critter claimed responsibility. The leaf netting over the main pond is a godsend, and I can't understand how the previous owner got by without one. I'm keeping the surface of the water moving with the other sub pump so the leaf net doesn't freeze in place before I can remove it. The steel rods that will support our security fence perimeter are in too, but the plastic fencing can wait until the net is removed and the water surface freezes. Which with my luck, will be Monday.....LOL

[Busy B]

Not a good time huh?

I'm glad you all are catching up to me...I didn't want to be lonely being the only one with cold hands and feet :lol:

[Jackie Ramo]

Trust me Busy, I was out working in the pond yesterday and both my hands and feet were plenty cold. Darn long gloves aren't long enough to pull leaves off the bottom of the first shelf...

Dave I know its hard to do but try to keep the leave net out of the water. Maybe a large dollar store ball in the middle to hold it up? The leaves when wet will pull hard on the netting but will also release tannins into the water making it brown.

[Dave in Innisfil]

I put our leaf net OVER our solar pond lights and mostly submerged plants, to try and keep it and the leaves somewhat off the water. With the help of a pump, I'm hoping to keep the net from freezing in place before I can remove it. We put up half the security fencing to try and disuade some of the blowing leaves from coming to rest in our pond. Our water temp is now in the low 40's, but the goldfish are still relatively active. Only at night do we see the koi cruising under the pond vent light, where they go during the daylight is beyond us. We haven't seen ol' Roy in weeks now, hoping he's found a nice warm spot to spend the next few months. Our 8 new koi all seem to be doing well, and I'd almost swear they've grown a bit in the past month.

We lost a huge goldie last week, to what I'm not sure. It was fatter than it was big, resembling an orange tennis ball. I noticed it acting strangely, more floating than swimming, quickly netted it (under the leaf net is no easy feat, I tell you) and quarantined it in the upper bog. A couple of days later I found it floating. No great loss other than a head scratcher as to why. It's the first non-predetor loss for us in quite a while, and sure hope it isn't an omen of what our spring is gonna be like....again. This weekend we added an outside tap to our main water line so I can add fresh water if the need arises without running a garden hose thru the house again. I'm still holding out for one more nice weekend to do some final in-pond clean up, final water exchange and pump removal.

[Jackie Ramo]

Dave the goldfish could have had dropsey which is a bacterial infection that attacts the internal organs mostly kidneys whcih causes them to bloat up, scales stick out and eyes pop. Not contageous but often a sign of a pond not clean enough. I could also be a tumour. Some goldfish types are prone to these. Had one myself that lived for years swollen so bad it was painful to watch her but she swam and ate and looked happy enough so I left her until she looked unhappy then she went to the big pond in the sky.

[TASSAJARA]

I would never have thought of all the stuff you have to do where it freezes.

Do you have to leave a hole in the ice for the O2?

[Dave in Innisfil]

Keeping a hole open last winter was the only thing we did right, and even that I went about all wrong. This year we're using two air pumps with stones set below the surface and a Bickal-inspired DIY pond vent/light (black thingy floating in centre of pond). Plan D is a pump set just below the surface.

Jackie.... I can't get my pond any cleaner. Twice daily I skim and remove the leaves from the net, hopefully before they leave their tannin behind. The water is crystal clear right to the bottom, and at night the fish seem to be suspended in nothing under the lights. I wish I had this clarity all year. Water tests are fine, excluding an above normal pH which I blame entirely on the overhanging fir tree. The needles sink too quickly between skimmings.

I'm not mourning the loss of a goldie, just thought it strange and worth questioning. The eyes were kinda bulging, and some of the stomach scales were raised and whitish. Post-mortum it had lost much of its colour, and was substantially less bloated. Let's hope it was an isolated occurance.

[Jackie Ramo]

Dave I'd not worry about the goldfish either. I don't mean that to sound harsh but it is gone now past finding out the cause. I know you are keeping the pond as clean as you can.

Yeah I hear you on the water, mine sparkles right now maybe its the cold that makes it so clear.

Michael you'd be amazed at we poor folk have to do to keep our fish alive over the winter. Mine didn't eat for 7 months last year.... poor things

[Merlin]

Dave I'd not worry about the goldfish either. I don't mean that to sound harsh but it is gone now past finding out the cause. I know you are keeping the pond as clean as you can.

Yeah I hear you on the water, mine sparkles right now maybe its the cold that makes it so clear.

Michael you'd be amazed at we poor folk have to do to keep our fish alive over the winter. Mine didn't eat for 7 months last year.... poor things

Thats only because you forgot to feed them Jackie :lol: . Well it is still quite mild over here, so still feeding the fish. I have changed their food to a high protien one to help them get trough the winter ( when it arives). I am glad I do not have to wory about netting my pond, that looks like hard work. !dude

[Jackie Ramo]

They were begging for food today but I didn't feed them except a bit of my sandwhich as I had lunch at 3 pm by the pond... they got worms and slugs the other day and will probably get a few tomorrow as well. Let them eat the algae, thee's enough of that in there. Managed to get some of the vaccuming done today. Another few loads tomorrow and a another big water change.

We are having a heat wave... well a warm wave so trying to get the pond done while it is nice. Next week we have real November, cold damp and bone chilling winds.

[Dave in Innisfil]

Thanks to our unseasonably warm temperatures, our pond is back over 50 degrees. All the fish, including ol' Roy, are very active, and follow me around the pond while I skim the leaves. I've thrown them the odd worm or grub, but no substantial feeding for a few weeks now. A couple of goldies have been entagling themselves in the netting, searching for food I presume. In one secured corner, I've still got a couple dozen water hyacynth floating, and I've noticed the koi making short work of the dangling rootage

I've got some tiny particle wheat-germ-based food, and was wondering if it's OK to feed the poor buggers just a bit ? Our weather forecast for the next few days is still going to be unseasonably warm.

[Terri]

Dave, if they are "asking" then feed them, but in small portions, once a day is fine, or every other day. Wheat germ food is a good choice this time of year if your water temps are hovering around the 50-55F range... other things to consider are small bite sized treats like sweet potato, water melon, oranges, kale, etc,.... more of a veggie/friut based food along with some worms and buggy things occationally. If you have a good carpet of algae in the pond then really this is what they will gravitate towards when hungry at lower temperatures. Whatever the case it should be noted that feeding at this time of year should be done sparingly... after all, the filters are not up to snuff(bacteria are slowing down rapidly) and what goes in must come out ;-)

If your fish have been well fed all summer and aquired a good fat layer, there is not much to do in the way of feeding more.... just making sure their home is very clean and waterQ is exceptional :grin:

[Jackie Ramo]

Yes, always remember food goes in food comes out!! after cleaning the bottom I don't want to have to do it again.. although I will be out there with the vac at some point again today or tomorrow.

[Dave in Innisfil]

The sinking pellets drew in fish from all corners of the pond in seconds. I also took the opportunity to do a water top-up while my well pump is still working. We know we're leakless in the main pond thanks to the new liner , yet it amazes me how much water we've lost, thru wind, evaporation and soggy leaves I guess. After an hour, I skimmed off the remaining floating pellets. With the only filtration being some stationary hyacynth and a few sprigs of parrot-feather, manual skimming and water changes are my only options. Everything down below is covered in a soft brownish fuzz.

The effect of the leaf tannins in the upper bog pond is incredible, making the water similar to steeped tea in colour and consistancy. Probably best for us not to consider it for further QT duties until it gets another good clean-up and water replacement. No sign of the guinea-pig goldies I put back in there. Can't call them feeder goldies any more, since they're bigger than most pirhanna I've ever seen.

[Jackie Ramo]

Tanins of themselves are not harmful to fish but debris on the bottom making tanins is harmful

My guys got some worms and slugs today as well as the bottom of the pond vac'd up. Lost the light so can't see if I got it all or not. Sun seems to move much faster this time of year. Thought I'd have an hour of the sun shining down into the pond so I could see clearly.... wrong, 25 minutes and it was gone and the reflection interferred with good vision.

[Dave in Innisfil]

Last night's wind storm did quite a bit of damage locally. An unusual number of trees down, and most of the leaves now blowing around profusely. Worse is the spruce needles, which fall thru the leaf netting. I've taken to suspending the netting off the water with empty plastic pop bottles. It makes gathering the needles a bit easier. Next year, I'll keep our DIY skimmer in place a bit longer too.

I've found where the koi have been hiding too. All of them together in the mid-level of the pond, under plant stands I made with plastic milk crates in the front left corner. Those that can't get inside mull around the entrance. The other fish (goldies/shubs/comets) are scattered throught the pond. As time goes by, it also seems the koi don't like the two 75W white spot lights I'm currently using in the vent. Greg's plan called for two 25W, but I think we get much colder winters than he does so I've upped the wattage. I think we'll give them red bulbs later on, a bit easier on the eyes.

[Busy B]

I keep geese and peacocks outside thru the winter...when we had chickens we had to have red lights..keeps them from turning into carnivores :eek: You don't think koi would do the same do ya? :grin:

[Dave in Innisfil]

I queried Greg about my bulb colour selection, and he made a few suggestions. The white bulbs give the pond an erie soft green glow, and coupled with the airstone bubbling the water at the surface looks kinda spooky. We found the red bulbs better for taking fish pictures, as they aren't as shy of that colour like they are of the bright white. Blue bulbs just didn't look right, and neither did yellow. Green worked well and would be our second choice after red. It won't matter much to us after the pond freezes and is covered with snow, but I don't want the fish to be shy of the warmer, deeper area of our pond because of my selection in lighting colour.

[GregBickal]

Koi will build their own furniture for the winter, but you gotta leave them the sticks and leaves in the bottom of the pond to do so :roll:

For a client's pont I built last year, I just turned their pump into a venturi for the winter. The pond froze over, but it kept producing air, and the air seeps out of spots around the edge where the rocks are.

Of course, you all know what im doing this year for my koi :grin:

[Dave in Innisfil]

I've hopefully removed most of the sticks and other debris from the pond, so our fish will have to be real inventive in building their own furniture.

Eugene has made a couple of further recommendations to my wintering plans which I am putting into place without question based on his vast experience within our general climatic zone.

Just how big a vent hole is necessary for proper venting, and where in the pond should it be ?

The concept of the venturi. Isn't it harmful to mix the warmer water from the lower levels with the colder water of the surface ?

Is a 50% water change from our well to our pond (currently almost same temperature) too much at this time of year ? An unfortunate necessnity for us to remove the main pond pump without donning scuba gear.