Milky Skin

[TASSAJARA]

I have a fish that over night her skin appeared milky or like a mold in much of it’s body. I noticed this once before about three weeks ago but don’t remember much more other than it went away as fast as it came and it was only a very small area on the head and some in front of the dorsal fin, don’t remember if it was after a water change or not.

I did a backwash on the filter yesterday morning resulting in a 10% water change, added ClorAM-X as usual. Checked Chlorine=0, ammonia=0, PH=8, Nitrite=0, water temp=80f. All looked fine.

Took pictures of the fish last night and there were no symptoms at all. When feeding this morning, noticed the Chagoi with the milky skin again but much worse. The fish is acting and feeding normal, not flashing or doing anything else to indicate any problem. The water quality is the same as yesterday. Checked Chlorine=0, ammonia=0, PH=8, Nitrite=0, water temp=80f. Koi Vet site states, Milky skin is nothing more than excess mucus production. The best cause of this in long-established "no new fish" collections is pH plunges. When the pH plunges, fish hover at the surface and get milky skins. The PH has been stable and the fish and only ONE fish showing milky skin does not hover at surface.

I have posted this problem at KoiVet also http://www.koivetforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=18643

I have attached a pic in hopes that someone has seen this before to help.

Tks, michael

[Ian]

A little warm for carp pox thats for sure! I've seen parasites do some white milky areas but never without other symptoms, flashing, hanging at the surface, ect ect. Kind of looks like colour changing in the photo's a bit, would be cool if you could get a close up? Some one might recognize it and be able to help better.

[TASSAJARA]

Ian, I tried some a little closer, keeping them below 90K files makes them small.

[Jackie Ramo]

Michael, the only time I have experienced this problem is with costia, looked like the skin was peeling off them. I'd scrape and scope asap even though it is just the one fish. Parasites usually start with one fish and move onto the rest once their numbers are adequate.

For myself, I'd also do a salt bath, if nothing showed on the scope. 0.6 for 30 minutes won't hurt the fish and maybe enough to knock back any fungus or whatever is causing this.

[TASSAJARA]

Jackie,

With this symptom come and gone before in over one day do you think it could be a parasite issue?

[Jackie Ramo]

Yes, I do. Costia is one of those weird things that is always with us. A small uprising and then the conditions changed.

I sent you a pm about sending me the large pics.... I'll use the website Terri provides members here to post the bigger pics for you. Hard to see on the little ones exactly what is going on.

[luke frisbee]

i have koi that do this on occassion...if it is what happens on my koi it is no big deal....it is usually caused by a change in their water....a drastic change in temp will do the trick for some of my koi...if the fish has no other signs of infestation then do not worry.....

[TASSAJARA]

Hi Luke,

As mentioned in the post, I did see this come and go the next day. It just was not near as much.

While looking closer at the rest, I noticed one of the fish has what looks like small barnacles on it's tail. It looks like a cluster of 3 or five of them with a total size of about 1/4 inch. I will try to get a pic to post.

Should I start a different thread for the other issue?

What the Hell is going on. :roll:

[TASSAJARA]

I'm having trouble getting a better pic of Lou's tail, see if this is any help.

[TASSAJARA]

I found an artical at docs site about White Waxy Hard Droplets in Fins and Tail.

It does look like it could be this. Don't know how long he has had it.

http://www.koivet.com/html/glossary/glossary_details.php?glossary_id=39&category=Symptoms

[Jackie Ramo]

Here's the big picture

http://jackieramo.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10001/michaels%20fish1.jpeg

A close up

http://jackieramo.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10001/Michaels%20fish%202b.JPG

[Jackie Ramo]

Michale the bumps look like carp pox to me. The often come and go on fish, some worse some not bad at all. Usually cold water but not always.

On a closer look I'm not sure about the other. If Luke who has similar climate conditions to you has experienced this same thing then perhaps he knows better. I'd still scrape and scope and do a salt bath.. but that's me

[TASSAJARA]

Jackie, first let me thank you for going through all the trouble, especially with the crop shot. You can see it pretty good. Boy, I’m glade I had to type that and not say it. :lol:

If nobody can identify it by tomorrow morning and I see that it has gotten worse, I will probably do the salt dip at .6% as you suggested. With Wilma coming to visit us tomorrow, I will probably let that determine what I do tomorrow. The salt level in the pond is back down to .06% since the last ordeal and I did not want to salt the entire pond in the event I need to treat with a product that does not work with salt. I guess I can wait till tomorrow and make a decision, the milky skin cleared in a day the last time and it might happen again. I just hope we don’t have anything worse to worry about after Wilma leaves.

As for Lou, alias Lucy, you remember him; we changed his name to Lighting Lou. I think your right, it does look like the description on carp pox and he does not show any other signs except for his broken back we all know about. He just happen to be in one of the pics I posted with this post in the beginning, you can see he looks like he has Scoliosis, God bless him, I hope pox is all he has, he has gone through enough this year already.

Tks again to all,
michael

[Jackie Ramo]

Well good luck with Wilma. There certainly has been enough heartbreak caused by these storms this year.

Beinterested on your take of Luke's precautions or some would say lack of them in the "Bad" thread.

If the fish is acting normal there is little need to panic and act now.

[TASSAJARA]

O.K., you got my attention, “BAD THREAD”? Am I to read between the lines?

[Jackie Ramo]

Here you go Besides if Luke is invloved you can count on it goig bad, that's why we love him so!!!

http://backyardpuddle.com/forum/showthread.php?t=720&page=5&pp=15

[TASSAJARA]

This is verrrrry scary, most of Lukes hurricane plans made good logic to me also. We won’t have to worry about the flooding due to the pond being elevated. We have handled 12” of rain over a couple of days during regular thunderstorms not to mention last years four hurricanes. KH is good and our ph stays very stable even with heavy rain.

Can’t wait till tomorrow to see what to do next.
I have a problem doing to much most of the time instead of waiting.

[Jackie Ramo]

Michael, when it is our fish, or whatever, we all over react, sitting here in a chair miles away it seem easy, much like the questions on Who wants to be a Millionaire :grin:

[luke frisbee]

the milky skin does not look like carp pox.....i would just watch it.....some refer to it as a koi having a cold.....the fish becomes stressed and over produces its slime coat and it sloughs off...
the barnacle...well if i get a koi with carp pox i ................................ uh. Well i do not have any fish with Carp pox, nor do I give them away... I haven't had to toss one of my own but I have done it for a friend.

[Busy B]

How'd you fare Micheal thru the cane?

[TASSAJARA]

Well, Wilma came and went like a bad in-law but it looks like the Tampa Bay area dodged another bullet. All we got was a bunch of blown down tree limbs and we only got about 3 inches of rain in my area. The front came in and brought us 40F weather and I'll bet Luke is enjoying it also. I’m caught up on the picking up and dumping stuff and now back to Koi stuff.

Chad’s milky skin was much improved by Monday morning and has gotten better every day. You can barely see any resemblance of the milky skin left. I will try and get a pic to post ASAP.

As for the Carp Pox, if this is what Lou has, is carp pox any danger to the rest of the fish or pond?

[Jackie Ramo]

Michael glad to see you back and that things are fine if a bit messy.

As for carp pox, its never killed a fish that I've ever heard of but it can become ugly. I believe (without scientific proof) that there is more than one kind of carp pox, much like there is more than one kind of measles.

[Jackie Ramo]

Michael glad to see you back and that things are fine if a bit messy.

As for carp pox, its never killed a fish that I've ever heard of but it can become ugly. I believe (without scientific proof) that there is more than one kind of carp pox, much like there is more than one kind of measles. Here's one that looks really nasty. Dayleen posted this in another thread.

http://canadiankoiandpond.ca/coppermine/albums/userpics/10001/%21cid_45B54051-E4C1-4DC7-A0A4-B38A49D9D240_resize.jpg

[TASSAJARA]

OUCH, like I said before Jackie, we we madam, not in my pond.

I can't believe that she has a client’s fish like that in her pond, does that say that she does not think it is contagious?
:-?

[Jackie Ramo]

I'd have to go and look for the thread again but I think they are in a tank, not in the pond. Dayleen runs her business in British Columbia. Now that things have slowed down for her way may see her posting again.

Terri and I had this dicussion before about it being contagious. I have one fish that gets one pox on its tail, so I think the type I have isn't contagious. She had a fish that got several smaller pox on its fins and shared this with several others... she thinks its very contagious :frisbee:

[TASSAJARA]

Lou has several small pox on his tail so am I to assume (and we all know what that spells) this is highly contagious? :roll: This makes me crazy. !bonk
I need to let go and let GOD I guess.

[Terri]

Michael, Carp Pox is a herpes virus, it's nature is to infect and spread and run it's course. Not every fish in a pond with an infected koi will show symptoms of CP. Some never get it, some catch a mild case - it goes never to return, some get it year after year and then one year it's just gone.

Do a search on KV for Carp Pox, there are several good threads available on the topic.

This virus is not just seen in carp, several other species of fish are also affected... Fish Pox is the most common name.

Take a deep breath :grin: Eventually this too shall pass.

Let us know how the koi catching goes this weekend....

[TASSAJARA]

I was able to touch Chad while feeding her this morning and she did not feel like she had excessive slime. I was looking closely to for any marks before netting to make sure what I saw after netting was not caused by me when I noticed bad news. I can see a red sornes starting to develop on her right side and there are two small spots on her lips.

I am planning on netting her to get the pics anyway but should I do the salt bath @ .6% as Jackie recommended earlier in the thread while I have her in the pan with air stones or do a PP dip to try and slow down what ever it is.

Lee, it looks like our wet lab might not be soon enough.

[Terri]

No slowing down, you need to treat to resolve, no short cuts or it will prolong the health issue and could make things worse.
What did the milky area feel like? Sort of like fine grit sand paper? I know REC's memory didn't help with the pics I posted, but i think the end result was costia with Andrea's koi. Effects large fish slower than small(younger) fish - and I believe your ponds water temp is low atm?

Michael can you seperate Chad from the pond to treat? A .6% salt bath will knock 'em back but not get rid of the issue, the koi needs prolonged emmersion if you plan to go with salt.., PP can also be used in conjuction to speed up the hospital time - two to three low doses(1ppm) over 3 to 5 days with salinity at .6% - 15% waterchanges in between PP treatments keeping the salinity up. With the appearance of redness I would pull Chad into a hospital tank, warm it up into the mid-high 70F range to encourage immune response.

If you choose to use another chem treatment ProformC or PP will do to hit the whole pond.

A scrape and scope NEEDS to be done to detrmine the cause. A microscope is a koi keepers best friend ;)

[TASSAJARA]

Terri,

We do not have a Q tank, all I have are large tubs. Should I net her, take some pics and apply hydrogen peroxide to the sore areas. Then put her back in the pond and treat the whole pond at 1ppm with pp at a salt level of .3%. The next thing, do you remember how much pp per gal for 1ppm? I think I used 6 teaspoons for 4K gal. to reach 3ppm. I will have to find some old notes.

[TASSAJARA]

Terri,
I have her in the tub right now for 10 min of the 30min with .6% salt and I dabbed what looks like a scrape ageist a rock or something with hydrogen peroxide and her lips. Took some pics also anything else while I have her out. She was hard to catch, I need a bigger net I think. She measured at 27”.

[TASSAJARA]

I netted Chad, put her in a tub with .6% salt for 30min. after taking some pics and swabbing her lips and side with Hydrogen peroxide. I did not see any of the hydrogen peroxide foam as described by doc on the read about costia and it is a new bottle. At the end of the 30 min., I’m probably going to hear it for this one but what the heck. I added 1tp of pp to the 10gal of water. If I figured right it should be around 4ppm. After about 1min of the pp I released her into the pond. After watching her for a while she settled down. There all a little nervous after all the commotion of trying to catch Chad. I started salting the pond to .3%. I have attached some pics. Forgot to add that her slime felt normal not grity.

[Terri]

Sorry was out doing w/c's...

Chad looks way better than a few days ago. I don't get it, fish produce excess mucus as a defence mechinism, what prompted this outbreak? Mild case of of some protozoa? pH flux? A "cold" as Luke mentioned? Follow up symptoms showing around the lips, redness noticed on the body in patches - irritation of some sort, water or bug? Hmmm...

... need a scope to solve this one...

BTW, Chad is a lovely chagoi, very nice reticulation and colour.

[TASSAJARA]

Hi Terri,

The mucus thing looks a lot better for sure. When I checked on them this morning I noticed that Chad’s lips look better, not red, just a small spot that looks like a wound healing, still early. I was not able to see her side yet. Yep, I agree, what, where and how come to mind.

Tks Terri for the lovely compliment, I also think she is a beautiful fish.

[Jackie Ramo]

Sorry Michael I have been out of town for the weekend and just returned. Seems you have things in hand now and improvement is showing. What is the water temp? Also can you give us a refresh on the water parameters now.

The sores on the mouth looked more like red bumps that ulcer holes.

The fish looks good in the pics with the exception of the sores, but has lots of resources to draw from for healing.

[TASSAJARA]

Hi Jackie,

Her lips look the same as yesterday, not better or worse which to say they do look better than in the pic you referred to as not ulcers. I did notice yesterday afternoon her lower rear fin had a little tattered spot and when checking this morning I noticed the same on her dorsal fin and I know it was not there yesterday. I was able to get a pic of the dorsal fin. You or Terri mention I think that costia at one time looked like skin coming off. Reflecting back when I had her in the tub doing the salt dip, I noticed what looked like skin loose in the water. ATT I just thought it was some string caca.

Sandy said she can’t stand it anymore and I could buy a scope instead of trying to get the one from school. I don’t think I have the time to get one and learn how to use it. Salt at .15% and should be at .3% by today. Any recommendations on a scope?

[TASSAJARA]

The pond is at .3%, I have removed all plants that can not handle the .3%. I do not see any change in Chadeen’s lips since this morning for the better or worse. I can not see the spot she had on her side, it might have healed it self. Will have to try and get some pics in the morning when the light is better.

Chadeen asked me to please thank all of you for helping, ;-)

[Jackie Ramo]

Is there any white around the sores on the lips? or is the bump just getting smaller? The fraying of the fins is a worry. Shows whatever caused the bumps and sores is still active....

As for a scope, I have a kiddy one, not much good but better than nothing. You can also get a more senior kiddy one that hooks up to the computer or even a good one at a pawn shop. Whatever the budget allows. Its the eye looking through the lense that is the important part and so far my eye is blind :lol:

[TASSAJARA]

Yep, I know what you mean about the eye.
The bumps are the same size, just not red. They almost look like a pimple.
It look like I should be able to pick up a scope good enough to do the job for under $200 but like you said, it's not the arrows, it's the indian that's shooting it.

[Jackie Ramo]

!rofl Indeed but practise does help so get the scope and practise on not only the fish but look at the algae and even just a drop of water can have a lot of surprises in it. Once you start seeing things, call a doctor :frisbee:

[TASSAJARA]

Is this like a little knowledge is dangerous?

[Jackie Ramo]

definately, but not as dangerous and not knowing what the heck is going on!!

[TASSAJARA]

"dito"

[TASSAJARA]

Sorry, I forgot to up-date water status. Ammonia=0, Nitrite=0, Nitrate=,<12.5, ph=8, salt=.3%, temp=63f, total hardness=250ppm, total alkalinity=180ppm

[Jackie Ramo]

Thanks Michael. All looks well there but why are you water temps so low??? I thought you folks were still having a heat wave. My water was 49F this morning.

[TASSAJARA]

I know, it was 80f last Monday when I started this post but fell to 63f when the front came through after Wilma. It has been around 72-75 in the day but low 50 at night. I thought of bypassing the falls to keep from chiling the water any more but this is the best way to get the salt in the pond.

[Jackie Ramo]

Ok, didn't realize a cold front had moved in and the water temp had me scratching my head. The colder water that quickly can cause complications but as I said the fish itself looks to be in general good health with lots of reserves to draw on to self heal, provided the parasite numbers can be kept down. Most parasties are in the pond always, just looking for a spot to break in.

[TASSAJARA]

The temp is starting to warm up some so the water should reflect it. Her lips look better, I'll try to get a pic. Found some scopes, what do you think of the two links below.

http://www.microscope-store.com/product_info.php/products_id/46

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/tech-data/B00006B1HC/ref=dp_nav_0/104-7093335-9970368?%5Fencoding=UTF8&n=502394&s=photo

[Terri]

Michael you will need a scope that can go to 100x in order to see some "bugs"clearly for identification, like costia.

[Jackie Ramo]

Terri I think that for costia you need 400x, its really tiny. For the rest 100x is ok. As crappy as mine is it goes to 750x

[Merlin]

Terri I think that for costia you need 400x, its really tiny. For the rest 100x is ok. As crappy as mine is it goes to 750x
You are correct there Jackie , 400x is a must for costia. :)

[Jackie Ramo]

You are correct there Jackie , 400x is a must for costia. :)


I love being right!!! :grin:

[Terri]

and you are .... not sure what I was typing...? sorry..

[TASSAJARA]

Tried to take some pics of chad’s lips this morning but could not get a very good one. The water quality test good with no changes except for a little warming from 63f to 69f. If you can tell from the pic, her lips are looking better. They are looking white and smoothing out. Her side hardly shows any marks and is almost gone. As for the dorsal fin and anal fin, I have had a chance to get a closer look while feeding and I’m stating to think it was damage done with the netting. The dorsal fin looks like the boney or spinney part was broken and is bending, the anal fin has a small piece missing between the spines. I have not seen any redness or major change otherwise.
I’m learning a lot from this netting on what to look for before and after netting, it was a little overwhelming and hard to think of everything, especially being the first major one, this was not a 6” fish. :smile:

As for a scope, Sandy brought two from school home so I have access to a scope till I decide which one to purchase. One goes to 40X to equal 400 power for the costia as mentioned. I just need to get some glass slides and a wet lab. I’m a firm believer that the best piece of equipment or technology can be your worst fall if not checked out and used properly. I would not hand anybody a gun without first training them, would you? :lol:

Almost forgot to add this link about fish, I found it intrusting and would like to see what you all think of it. They talk about water based antibiotics.

http://www.fishyfarmacy.com/koipond/general_info.html

[luke frisbee]

You two haven't bothered this koi enough? If it had been sick all this fussin' over it would have killed it by now.

[TASSAJARA]

luke let me guess, scrape and scope !bonk

[Jackie Ramo]

:lol: at Luke, so far we've done nothing but talk about the fish, maybe we've talked it to death...

Looks good to me Michael. Not sur what the problems was/is but looks like remission to me.

Now is a good time to play with the scopes and learn how to use them and how to scrape a fish. Better to do it when not in a panic with fish gasping at the surface or worse floating belly up.

[Jackie Ramo]

Michael I had a quick look at the site. I find some of the answers simplistic and a few incorrect but generally it wasn't horrid. As I said just a quick look so others may have additional comments.

[Terri]

I had a not so quick look and agree with Jackie,... some misguiding, conflicting, and incorrect information... and don't get me started on the Salt recommendations at the bottom of each and every page! LMAO but I've seen worse ;-)

[Merlin]

I had a not so quick look and agree with Jackie,... some misguiding, conflicting, and incorrect information... and don't get me started on the Salt recommendations at the bottom of each and every page! LMAO but I've seen worse ;-)
Got to say the salt recomondations got me too, some meds do not work too well with a salted pond. Apart from that there is some good info on the site. :)

[TASSAJARA]

I was out of pocket this week, Mom is selling her house and son is fixing up for MLS.

This could be last up-date for chad, if she continues the same. Almost all marks from the past are gone.

I guess I kinda spun this post into the fishpharmacy.com post. Oh well, I ran across it looking for symptoms like chad and knew you all would be better judges.

I’m planning on doing a 40% water change today and not re-salt to .3%, just leave it where it falls.

BTW, just thought I would mention something I think is funny but could be a problem, what do you all think? I have a Camphor tree that hangs over half of the pond. It does make a little extra work with the leafs but the shade is wonderful. This is our 3rd season with the pond but the first season to notice the squirrels feeding the fish. The tree has a little black berry like thing that the squirrels eat and drop most of them in the pond where the fish have learned to circle the wagons around where they start falling and go nuts for the stuff. Not much I can do to stop it and it looks like the fish like it. I’m just wondering about the chance for more bugs with all the frogs and birds and squirrels oh my.

[Jackie Ramo]

Well at least the fish won't be hungry if you go on vacation. :lol: As for bugs and what not, they are always with us and good water and healthy fish are the best defense. Look how well your fish fought off whatever was bothering it. Would still like to know for future reference but then I'm wanting to know everything although hubby says I do now :lol:

[TASSAJARA]

Jackie, when I want the pond bottom cleaned up, I take a vacation and let nature take its course. The fish do a wonderful job. :lol:
Catching up after the water change Thursday. Did the change about 10-11 in the morning and all went well. The fish looked happy, no flashing, all the water readings were stable except for water temp change from 69f to 72f. All was still good at night before dark when I feed them. Woke up Friday morning and chad had the milkey skin on her head and top of tail, not bad, but it was there. I did not freak because everything else was ok, I have seen this come and go before. I am starting to think it might be caused by to much or not enough cloram-x. I spoke with the manufacture and was advised that one scoop is equal to one ounce that will handle 235gal at 1ppm of ammonia and 3ppm of chlorine. I added 5 scoops of cloram-x for about 1000 gal. I did a 25% change instead of the 40%. I’m going to call the water company, recheck my math with the tap water and go from there. I can honestly say, I never had this happen before starting to use cloram-x three month ago but it has not happened every time I have used it either.
.

[Jackie Ramo]

Michael, I know LeeB lives not far off, ask her to come and scrape and scope or bring her stuff and teach you. It seems weird to me that one fish has this and the rest do not. Water quality issues normally affect all the fish. Now I will say that some fish are more sensitive than others to some things. After all I have one sensitive to cold water that does not affect the other fish, but still if this was my fish I'd want it checked out to find out the cause.

It may be that you have a canary fish that is sensitive to some water issues, my cold one hates pH changes as well.

[TASSAJARA]

The milkeyness is almost gone again. The only other thing I can see are some scratches on her face from something trying to get her or her trying to get away and run into some rocks. I have some work to catch up with so I have to watch her and see what develops. This is making me crazy!

[Jackie Ramo]

Isn't ponding fun???? :lol: !rofl If its not one thing it is another. Keep an close eye on the scratches, they are an opportunity to a parasite.

[Jackie Ramo]

Take your nose from the grindstone for a minute Michael and give us an update.

[Elizardbreath]

Hi Terri,

The mucus thing looks a lot better for sure. When I checked on them this morning I noticed that Chad’s lips look better, not red, just a small spot that looks like a wound healing, still early. I was not able to see her side yet. Yep, I agree, what, where and how come to mind.

Tks Terri for the lovely compliment, I also think she is a beautiful fish.

She is an absolutely beautiful fish. Couldn't tell her size until the hands showed up in it.
Wow.
Lizardbeth