Recipe for Quarantine Soup, please

[Dave in Innisfil]

Before I introduce fish from questionable sources, I imagine ya'll gonna suggest quarantining them for a while. Thus I'm fixing my leaky aquarium. I bought some Desafin to add to the water, but can't remember if I am or am NOT to add salt with that. And how long do you suggest I quarantine fish before introducing them to the pond ? Any other suggestions and recommendations ? It's been suggested that it may be a bit late in the season for adding fish to our ponds, but I'm adding two year olds or older instead of babies.

[Jackie Ramo]

How big are the fish and how big is the aquarium. Gold fish and koi at 2 years needs a lot of space.

I'd not treat prior to illness showing itself. The fish are stressed from being moved in the first place and unneeded meds are expensive.

[Merlin]

Would a touch of salt not ease their stress a little Jackie ?. As to qt I would normaly leave them for around 4 to 6 weeks, hopefuly any bugs that they might have will show themselves in that time . :wink:

[ozzyrockman]

Hello Dave, koi will grow very fast so don't take a chance with them outgrowing the qt before you can place them outside with the general population. Have a backup plan if you for see a problem with them outgrowing the current qt and do not release them w/o a good qt period. As Jackie said do not treat for something they don't have and give them lots of space. Also prime the qt filter with some media from the pond where they will be placed and leave them for about 45 days @ 75 degrees f . Do not make them adjust to water temps more than 10 degrees f in a 24hr period because any more than that is very hard on them and possibly fatal.

I have qt'd every year for the past three years because I find the best quality koi for the price at the end of the season and naturally qt no matter where they come from. I hold them in a separate qt from mid Sept thru late March in a stable heated 750g qt tank I made off our porch outside. Keep in mind we do not have extreme weather conditions so I am able to do this and if I where in extreme climates I would build a 4X8X36 qt tank in the garage and stock it very light with a filter that could handle the load. Allen

Ps isn't it about 160g per koi or ? per inch of koi ? per sqft surface area which can very some depending upon how good or bad your filter system is?

[Jackie Ramo]

Merlin, yes a little salt to 0.1 is good for stress and protects against nitrites. Even with an extablish filter, if its moved you will get nitrites so best to salt for them before they occur.

[Dave in Innisfil]

Geee...what's a guy to do ?

One koi book says simply immerse them in a medicated bath for a short period, aclimatize them to the same water temp as the pond, and then release them into the pond, while I'm also being advised to wait 30 to 45 days. Here, we can start to expect frost anytime after the middle of Sept., so the shorter the QT time the better if I want them to adjust to the pond before we "close it" for the season.

My first QT tank is an aquarium, somewhere between 50 and 70 gallons, that I can protect on my deck. Filtration is only a crude DIY device using a fountain pump to a 5L pail filled with lava and fibreglass wool filter material. I also have a large shallow plastic wading pool, but would definitely have to secure with some kind of covering or suffer heavy coon predation. Damn critters raided our chimnia fireplace outside our bedroom window, on the deck, within feet of our sleeping dogs, just to drag out an empty Tim-bits box I tossed in for burning.

Fish size as of yet are undetermined as they're still in Phishi's mud pond. The water level came up 3' or more with last weeks tornado's (Phishi's OK but her pond boat is AWOL at last resort), so our plans to harvest were postponed. Although she offered me my choice of sizes, I was hoping to add a dozen 6"ers to our smattering of a couple dozen assorted other pond fish in our 10,000 gallon main pond. Come spring, the pond fish go to our 2,000 gallon bog pond, and the koi stay in the main pond. After last spring's pondmare, I'm still crossing my fingers I've learned enough from ya'll to keep my fish alive over the winter. We're still learning and experimenting, and hope ice-out next spring will be a joyous event instead of this year's mass funeral.

I'm learning a bit about growth rates too. Roy, our only koi survivor, hasn't grown much this season, I'd say maybe a couple of inches at most. But Bubbles, our new Japanese "pedigree'd" koi has almost doubled in size in less than two months, and the surviving feeder goldfish have almost tripled in size. The snails also seem to enjoy life in our ponds, and many are the size of walnuts now. We haven't seen the shub babies this past week, and I'm scared they perished in the mass of string algae at the base of the water falls. I'm hoping to be pleasantly surprised when I lower my main pond's level for fall cleaning.

Be warned, I'm gonna have lots of questions about pond closing too.... LOL

[Jackie Ramo]

Dave knowing the source of the fish helps determine qing procedures. I doubt if any of these koi have KHV so we don't need to q for 6 weeks!! But I bet they are covered in parasites you do not want to have to treat in the main pond. These fish will be used to the parasites but Roy and friends will not!

In this case I would do a shot gun treatment and q for 2 - 3 weeks. The larger the q tank the easier it is to treat and to maintain water quality. Harder it is to protect from the furry neighbours...

[Dave in Innisfil]

No doubt there are different parasites in Phishi's ponds, and they quarantine their fish in many indoor aquariums and tanks at their disposal. I'm leary about asking Tina to use our 800 gallon inflatable pond or our dog's wading pool, but will go those routes if you advise a dozen 6" fish in 55 gallons for two weeks is too crowded. I plan on frequent small water changes in lieu of advanced filtration. I can buy a used 250 gallon pre-formed plastic pond a neighbor has for sale for about $75 too. I'm scared after using it as a QT I'll come up with some landscape design to add it as our third pond... LOL

Was it Melafix or Desafin I'm not suppose to mix with salt ? I can't remember which I used that the local "pond expert" sold me that had dramatic negative effects on my quarantined fish. The "pond expert" at Big Al's sold me Desafin this time as a QT additive, but didn't say anything about salting the water.

[Jackie Ramo]

Leave tehe melafix on the shelf and desafin doesn't mix with salt.

Can Phisie q the fish for you?

[Dave in Innisfil]

I'm fairly confident I can come up with some sort of filter utilizing our old water softener. Phishi's going to have enough fish to quarantine if our efforts are successful. I'm trying to learn all aspects of ponding, and from reading the many different threads, figure quarantining is a part of ponding so I might as well learn about it on donated fish opposed to pedigrees. Not that I won't give them my best efforts, as usual, but they're a step up from the guinea-pig feeder goldies I used. I'll leave salt out of my quarantining process as per your instructions. I've been pondering pondside .. LOL... over my concept of a top-to-bottom fed filter, with top overflow back into the souce. The watersoftener is on-hand, and already has a built in filter with bottom feed and top output. If that doesn't work, I can always go back to my DIY high-volume in-tank filter.

[Jackie Ramo]

Actually Dave since it takes 6-8 weeks for a filter to cycle I'd be looking at water changes and binders instead of filters unless you hook it up now and run it on the main pond until you get the fish. That way it will be started at least. A new filter really doesn't do much except mechanical, the bio needs time to grow.

Also since you are looking at a short q time of 2-3 weeks with your well water I'd do a pass through. Even better would be to do a pass through of pond water to the tank exposing the fish to the bacteria of the pond. Also you'll need to put one of the goldfish in with the new fish to expose them to the bacteria of the pond etc... I know these procedures seem complicated but are much easier than a pond full of sick and dying fish and trying to treat large volumes of water. Done right a Quarantine should prevent all that.

[Merlin]

Agree with Jackie on the Melafix, I have heard nothing but bad reports on that stuff. As to some of your books stating a single bath for each fish ect, I am sure there are hundreds of ponders out there who do not have a QT facility, so any prevention is better than none in their case. :) If you can QT your fish then their chance of survival is a hell of a lot higher. If you put new fish in with your current stock you may lose both, I am not saying you will but do you want to take the chance !wow! .

[Dave in Innisfil]

I figured some of that out.....LOL But thanks to your advice, I will modify my original plan.

My filter is more to remove sediments, add oxygen, and keep the water moving. My QT and filter are both on the deck, remote from the main pond for better security. From what I just gleaned, I should maybe start with water from the pond instead of the well, and will add one of my goldies. I can do top-ups from the well via the garden hose, or bring up buckets from the main pond as I will in order to fill the tank and filter. The tank still leaks, but only enough to stop Tina from letting me bring it inside the living room.

My plan is to use a fountain pump to move dirty water to the bottom of the filter, which will then pass thru lava, then a fiberglass mat filter, and finally a wool filter. I built and installed one of Ian's air rings on the bottom, which should help flow the water to the surface. The "cleaner" water will overflow back into the tank. Not the final version of my filter, but my bigger pump is currently being utilized in my skimmer, and my big construction pump is reserved for major pond draining. I'm still looking for a used swimming pool pump with leaf catcher. Today I'm picking up another air pump to oxygenate both the filter and the tank.

[Dave in Innisfil]

Excuse the greenish water, as it was used for leak detection. I'll refill with pond water before I add the fish.

[Jackie Ramo]

Fish like green water, we don't.

Not sure if the sequence of filtration is right. I usually use a mat first to get the grunch out then lava rocks. Maybe Ian or someone will pop in.

[Dave in Innisfil]

In going to Home Depot to pick up some waterline for my DIY filter, I met my neighbor who has had a 250 gallon pre-formed pond sitting in his driveway all season. Sick and tired of it in his driveway waiting for a planned garage sale, he told me to get rid of it for him. I just happened to be coming back from the dump, so I just happened to have an empty trailer behind my truck. On goes one pond. And then he pulled out a box of miscellaneous pond stuff. He kept the lights to use on his dock, but gave me the exact model of air pump I had bought less than an hour ago at Big Al's. Four large pot-bound iris were also added to the trailer. Hmmm now what ?

The local garden centre was also on my list of stops today. The sales assistant in the pond department remembered me from this spring. She was one of the few who didn't try to load me up with chemicals, rather she as ya'll did, suggested I buy a water quality test kit and go from there. I told her of my pond's progress and attempt at building a quarantine tank and DIY filter. Her suggestion was to load the top of the aquarium up with floating plants to cut down on the new fish trying to jump out and act as an in-tank filter. And her manager had just given her permission to use her own discretion on discounting all their floating plants, so I got a dozen huge water hyacynth for $1 each. Hmmm now what ?

250 gallon pre-formed pond, plants, air pump, spare rockery, and three hours to hide after dinner while Tina watches her reality shows. Remember how I was gonna use a leaky aquarium to quarantine our new fin-kids ?

Pictures to follow tomorrow.

[Jackie Ramo]

Talk about luck!!

The only downside to the preform is most are quite shallow which means the raccoons will just wade in and help themselves. Same problem with just using floating plants to cover the top of the aquarium, they'll fish the plants out and then the fish out.

[Dave in Innisfil]

The pups wading pool will cover the QT pond nicely during the evenings, and I still have the leaf netting to go over as a final deterrant to my masked intruders. But it wasn't the Queen's English I spoke when I just returned from a job interview to find a kingfisher perched on Tina's clothesline with a goldie in it's beak. Grrrrrr.... I guess I found the culprit for some recently injured fish.

Here's a pic of my new and improved QT pond. I added the snapping turtle planter so Phishi's fin-kids won't be homesick....LOL

[Jackie Ramo]

Looks, good Dave. You seem to have the bases covered now if only Phisies fishies would co-operate :grin:

[Terri]

I am confused? The preform is now meant for the purpose of QT of the koi you will be getting from Phishie? You will be using the dogs wading pool as a cover in the evenings to deter preditors?

[Dave in Innisfil]

After watching the koi we caught yesterday attempts at freedom, I realized I had to better control both predators getting in, and fish getting out.

So, I built a 4 X 8 frame with 2X2's, and covered it with plastic security fencing (3" X 3" holes") secured with wire staples. It covers most of the preform, but a few inches in each corner, which I thought would be good for access for me. I then secured the frame to the preform with two metal clamps. There, I thought, problem solved.

A few minutes later, one of the fish did an aerial escape attempt, jumped thru the holes in the middle of the plastic fencing, but fell back in the preform. Problem partially solved. Predators can't get in, but fish can still get out. Now, it's raining pretty hard, so I took some left over liner and covered the fencing with that until I can come up with ANOTHER brainiac idea....LOL
Right now I'm considering cutting a piece of my leaf netting to fit over the frame and down the sides, but that would make the remaining piece barely large enough to cover my bog pond, it's primary use.

Currently, there are 7 new koi ranging from 6 to 10 inches in the 250 gallon preform. My DIY filter seems to be working well, as the clarity of the water was incredible. I've added 80 ml of Desafin, and left the Melafix in the bottle.
Two of the fish currently have "issues", but responded well to temporary lodging in a bucket with a dedicated air stone. I'm optomistic right now that some piece and quiet is the best medicine for their past 24 hour ordeal. More details on that in my Catching Wild Koi thread.

[Jackie Ramo]

Can you use the entire bog netting and just roll up the excess, the Q is temporary and this would save the netting for the next use. Fish like mice can get out of the smallest holes.... so be sure there is no space.

[Dave in Innisfil]

So simple a temporary solution I didn't even consider it. In our limited travels the past few days while Tina recouperated, we both remarked how the season is quickly changing. More leaves are falling into the ponds, and we're now awoken each morning at dawn by the sounds of the growing flocks of Canada geese coming off Lake Simcoe flying inland to torment the grain farmers. I'll put the netting into temporary use on my quarantine pond for the next couple of weeks, and then it'll probably be re-installed over the bog. I was thinking of putting the new koi in the upper bog pond to start, so they would be easier to catch if they develop problems post quarantine. The upper bog suffers the heaviest predation, and I want to give our new fish the best odds at survival. The two fish with issues seem to have come around, and are both swimming much better already. They're still moving around slowly, but I haven't seen them on their sides the past day. The others are extremely spooky, and still try to escape in panic when I disturb them.

On the lighter side, Tina's reminded me that the quarantine pond is only temporary.....and not to get too attached to it. I guess she was reading my mind as I pondered where I was going to re-locate it to, and how I was going to make it a permanent addition. Little does she know I'm having a hard time figuring out where I'm gonna winter store the leaky aquarium and doggie wading pool, let alone the preformed pond...LOL

[Jackie Ramo]

Have another go at fixing the tank. One never knows what winter brings - actually spring is worse and you may need a corner for a fish or two to help them through the cold. Tina will never let you set it up if it still leaks.

[Dave in Innisfil]

All seven fish seem bright and perky, and skittish to beat all. With their past, I can't blame them of being cautious of all potential dangers. They lurk mostly out of sight whenever I come within several feet of the quarantine pond, and remain hidden long after I've left the area. Today they got a 25% changeout of fresh well water, and another 20ml of Desafin.

Since they seem somewhat content, I'm taking your advice and trying to properly fix the leaks in the aquarium rather than keep putting silicone over the lowest spot of leakage. What I should probably have done in the first place, cut off the old silicone seal and start fresh, was coincidentally written on the instructions that came with the silicone. Fancy that.....LOL

The concept of the indoor aquarium is still up for debate in our household, leaks or no leaks. Other than having a leaky tank, I'd be starting at ground zero having to acquire lights, air pump, filter(s), plants, gravel and stand. In another life, I had 6 tanks of various sizes on the go, and remember it all wasn't viewing enjoyment.

[Jackie Ramo]

Glad the new babies are settling in. Coming from a mud pond they will not be as friendly as something raised in Terri's fish house but they will come around. One only has to look at Keifer's vids to know a mud pond isn't the worst start for a friendly fish... btw they love shrimp tails so you can share and not give them the entire shrimp!!

[Dave in Innisfil]

Day 4, and no floaters.

I've read that ya'll feed your fish different things, but so far all I've attempted is regular pellet food. The fish in my QT pond are making short work of the water hyacynth roots. Is there something I should be feeding them special during this time ? I think they're overcoming the shock of capture and transport, and are regaining their appetites.

[Jackie Ramo]

I'm sure they are used to eating lots of veggies so I'd give them som romain lettuce or kale to chew on.

[Dave in Innisfil]

Ok, do I just put leaves in or am I suppose to shred it for them ?

Please don't tell me they fancy some kinda garlic dressing with it....LOL

[Jackie Ramo]

Just tie it to the edge and they will tear it off. Mind spoiled as they are prefer it finely chopped but I'd not reccommend it for the unspoiled ones.

Using a metal skewer pull a string through the base of the lettce tie it securely and off they go. A friend of mine's two koi will eat almost an entire lettuce in about 2 hours!!!

[Dave in Innisfil]

OK, one $1.79 head of romaine lettuce now suspended from the plastic lattice. With the pouring rain of Katrina hitting us now, I hope they appreciated it. My pups looked at me strangely when I tried to coerce them into joining me.

[Jackie Ramo]

Where are you shopping???? Romain is $0.67 here!!

[Dave in Innisfil]

I'm usually limited to four stores.....Cdn Tire, Home Depot, Big Al's and Princess Auto. I used to include Walmart, but then I end up having to buy uninteresting things like toilet paper and laundry detergent. My visiting a grocery store usually makes Tina wince. The Stroud IGA isn't known for its low prices, but when I figure the cost of fuel and time to run into Barrie for fresh veggies, sometimes paying a few dollars more at the checkout is better than a few dollars more at the pumps.

I've been trying to train the quarantined fish to look for the feeding ring, and they have started to eat the floating pellet food. I'm not sure if they've eaten any of the lettuce, but it's there if they want it. I pulled out a few of the water hyacynths, and there was almost no root base left. My mum always told me hunger was a sign of health, so I know a few of them might be up to the change to the big pond. One fish is rather lathargic, and its scales are kinda dull. But that's my topic for a new thread.

[Jackie Ramo]

Well another joy of city living I guess. The only thing the immediate neighbourhood lacks is a good veggie store, but there are plenty of them on the Danforth just a short drive away.

A good sign if they are eating.

[Merlin]

Ok, do I just put leaves in or am I suppose to shred it for them ?

Please don't tell me they fancy some kinda garlic dressing with it....LOLHey Dave has no-one informed you that Garlic is a favourite of Koi :lol:. My Koi get a weekly treat of having their pellets soaked for a couple of hours in a dish of water with a few crushed garlic leaves , they love it :grin: add half an orange to the banquet and they think they have gone to heaven. Adding the lettuce also means that they leave your plants alone.

On a serious note I hope that Katrina has past you by and you and your family are safe. :unsure: . Keep in touch to let us know you are ok.

[Dave in Innisfil]

No, no one has told me the secrets of feeding my koi and goldies. I've just been giving them floating pellets, and recently as per Jackie's suggestion, added lettuce. I'm hoping that feeding garlic isn't a preface to someone sending me koi recipes....... !rofl

[Dave in Innisfil]

While a tornado/funnel cloud did touch down only a few miles from here, we were spared the wrath of Katrina, just receiving a couple of inches of needed rain.

[Jackie Ramo]

Most koi love garlic and it is used in some pellets like dainichi. Even a bit of garlic on you figers brings them running!!

fruit, veggies, shrimp fake crab meat are all favourites of my koi.

[Dave in Innisfil]

My pellets turn to mush and clump after being soaked for a while. Am I missing a step ?

[Terri]

It's in the timing, only takes a few seconds in any "JUICE" absorb enough and not make the pellets mushy. Depends on the pellet and juice used really so trial and error for each.

[Jackie Ramo]

Try spritsing them with garlic water or orange juice what ever you are using. Just a light spray from a spray bottle is all that is needed, lie them out flat and let them dry again.

[Dave in Innisfil]

OK, I tried it. Don't know if my koi liked it or not because them darn goldies and shubs went spastic on it before they got there. I'll try it on my captive audience in the quarantine tank. Only one nervous goldie in there. The koi in the QT don't seem to eat during daylight hours.

[Jackie Ramo]

!rofl Yeah, they all like it... I may have to use that to catch a few of the babies I have now... They are growing so big so quick I need to do something about them before winter I think...

[Dave in Innisfil]

We've counted 5 babies in our pond, probably shubs or comets. What are their chances of survival if we don't bring them indoors for the winter ? For arguements sake, let's pretend we don't have another spring pondmare.. LOL

[Jackie Ramo]

Dave most of my babies will tough it out in the pond all winter. Seems harsh but that is what is available here. Terri, will bring her's in I'm sure.

Although a few babies may be lost over the winter, many winters I have not lost any of them. So I look at the lost ones as being weaker to start with or perhaps with hidden deformaties. I believe chances are you'll lose the big ones before the little ones during a pondmare.

[Dave in Innisfil]

We're really trying to avoid having to set up an indoor aquarium, so leaving them in is preferrable.

Here's another example of conflicting info. Friendly debate from an inquisitive newbie, Jackie. Only Roy, our biggest koi, and one of the largest black moors survived our spring pondmare. All the smaller fish seemed to die off first. Somewhere I read/was told that smaller, baby fish are like canaries in a coal mine, indicators of a healthy environment and die at the first sign of a problem.

[Jackie Ramo]

Dave the general rule is mom nature will take either your favourite or the most expensive fish in the pond first... she's a nasty lady some days. There are conditions where the small go first and conditions where the big go first. Sometimes its hard to tell which are which... :roll: Generally in my own experience, the small are quick and need less to get by while the big un's need more food more oxygen and better water.

[Dave in Innisfil]

I can't find fault in that logic. Seem always my favourite shirt I spill on.

Regardless, it would be hard to choose which fish to bring indoors, let alone catch them. My favourite, Roy, would need a tank to himself. I guess I'm just gonna have to do the best I can to winterize the main pond, and hold my breath until spring.

[Jackie Ramo]

We built an indoor pond for a fish... one who doens't even like us, nasty boy, but he is the last of my original fish and can't take the cold so unless I want him to die he must come in. He's 15 this year and I hope he makes 20 although there are days I think he may feed 20 on the BBQ.

I made the choice to bring him in one year and left his good twin outside... lost the good twin who was the heart of the pond..... no good deed goes unpunished.