Butterfly Baby

[Jackie Ramo]

Terri, I will have to net that little butterfly out and have a look at it this afternoon. If its carp pox its getting worse and the other fin now has a red streak in it. Have to go out now but will post a pic if I can catch the little devil. Even with 2 damaged fins it seems to be the fastest one in the pond!!!

[pondlover]

:( Jackie sorry to hear you are having fish problems. Keep us posted
Jennifer

[ozzyrockman]

Jackie, if it does have carp pox is there anything you can do to help correct the carp pox condition and does it spread to others? Allen

[Terri]

Geez Jackie, that sucks :(

Ok, well what about a salt bath to start. CP shouldn't be eating the fins so drastically. Hopefully you'll get a photo up. If you want I'll come take the butterfly and treat him here.

Hi Allen!!!! Welcome!
CP is a virus, there's not much to do but wait. Heat treatments often recess the symptoms but not necessary "cure" the problem. In some instances treating the effected areas of the skin with iodine may help slough the growths off. It's not advisable to physically remove the growths as this may cause a secondary infection. The growths are really just a by-product, dead skin cells. The virus lays burried deep in the epidermis. Carp Pox can spread to other fish... over stocking and poor conditions tend encourage the spread of the virus. It's the individual really, some fish get it, some get it badly, some don't (or never show symptoms). Overal it's harmless albeit ugly to look at. Like having a cold sore.

[Dayleen]

I have 2 Koi here that belong to a customer (pet shop specials) that i have been babysitting all winter. They have the worst case of CP i have ever seen. They are covered from nose to tail tip, the fins are actually thick looking...really gross!! Anyway, i have seen this virus come and go many times on different fish but these 2 kinda worry me. They haven't gotten any better all winter and they have been in the mid 70's the whole time. Have you ever seen a case this bad actually change for the better....any suggestion?

Oh ya, since Goldfish are of little interest to me...i put these 2 Koi in with about 50 of them and it hasn't spread to any of them. These Koi need to be out of here when i open for the season....any suggestion on hastening their departure? :lol:

[Jackie Ramo]

Well I did take some bad pics... but can't figure out how to post them I pressed all the buttons but nothing lets me chose my pic... insert Img doesn't click....

Anyway back to the fish. I'm positive it is carp pox and nasty. The fins are red veined going tot he pox like its feeding, the fins themselves seem to be melting although that is a harsh word to use.

It now has pox on its dorsal fin, and tail as well as thepectorals.

Terri I'll send a couple of pix to you, maybe you canpost them. Sorry I did the fish before loggin on and for lack of a better idea I put Iodine on them. as they looked so nasty. I've had fish with carp pox before but none as nasty as this. I wonder if we will findout there is more than one kind of pox.

[Terri]

http://canadiankoiandpond.ca/coppermine/albums/userpics/10001/normal_DSCN2099.JPG

http://canadiankoiandpond.ca/coppermine/albums/userpics/10001/normal_DSCN2101.JPG

http://canadiankoiandpond.ca/coppermine/albums/userpics/10001/normal_DSCN2102.JPG

That's a case of fin rot(along with the carp pox - seperate issue). What would you like to do? A low does PP bath will help but for recovery, warm water is inorder. Ball is in your court. I've sent you an email.

[Terri]

Dayleen, (welcome :) )
Yeah I've seen some bad cases... it takes time... If you're up for it do the heat treatment, might take 'til spring to see results. I'd talk it over with your clients, see what they want to do. Did they have CP when they came to stay with you?

[Jackie Ramo]

Gee, I posted a reply here a while ago but its not here...

Terri, where do you see the carp pox. Looking at the fish the pox spots at the end of the fins or fin rot, or is it both in the same place??? As I said I've never had fin rot in any fish so am not familiar with how it looks or acts.

Since I've used iodine on all the spots I'll wait and see if it gets worse before giving it a pp bath.

[Dayleen]

Yes they had the pox already, that's why i took them, for them...to try and do heat therapy to clean them up. Like i said, they are really bad.

I only did it because they are good customers, normally i would never keep other peoples fish anywhere near mine. I did have room in the Goldfish quarantine tank so i agreed to winter them. They were heated in the fall to 86 degrees for about 6 weeks, but nothing changed. The rest of the time they have been in the mid 70's.

If i send you a picture...could you post it for me. If Jackie thinks her's is bad....just wait till she see's this.

Thanks Terri!!

[Dayleen]

OH....and thanks for the welcome!! Your board looks really good !!!!

[Terri]

go ahead Dayleen, I'll post it. terrijohn@sympatico.ca ...and thank you!

Jackie, the one vent fin appears to have a small "ball" of pox... and I remember seeing it on the tail at your place, on the edges of the fin.

Iodine is fine, never hurts. We'll wait and see.

[Terri]

http://canadiankoiandpond.ca/coppermine/albums/userpics/10001/%21cid_45B54051-E4C1-4DC7-A0A4-B38A49D9D240_resize.jpg

http://canadiankoiandpond.ca/coppermine/albums/userpics/10001/%21cid_E282DF7B-DE23-4DD4-9E79-5727B7B3B43E_resize.jpg

Now that's nasty

How are the gills?
Dayleen, why not try this, if you're willing... the patch of Pox just above the head, treat it using a q-tip soaked with iodine. It should stain purple/red, let it sit for as long as the koi will allow out of water. Wait and watch what happens over the next day or so... if the growth in that area receeds, treat the rest of the fish in the same manner. Becareful around the eyes, mouth, and gills.

I don't have any "data" to show this but it's my feeling that the growths may inhibit the koi's immune system if it get's bad, then gets worse. The iodine will help slough off the growths(dead skin), which interfer with the slime coat. We've treated a couple koi that were bad like that. A few treatments before spring and that koi might just look ok...?

[Dayleen]

Thanks for posting them Terri. Told ya they were bad. The gills are perfect. Other than the gobs of pox the fish seem just fine. Eating like pigs, totally active...just look nasty.

I'll try what you said. I'll let you know.

[Terri]

Great :)

[Jackie Ramo]

Dayleen, they be some ugly koi!!! :lol: Although I did see worse on a KV post some time ago but no so general overall worse but more compact on fins not body.

I can't see any on your guests fins, yet my guy only has it on its fins, and my guy in the pond. Truly I bet there are 100's of kinds of pox

[Jackie Ramo]

Just wanted to report on the fish this morning. 90% of the red has gone from the fins and it was swimming like mad trying to hide from me this morning. It did manage to grab a couple of pellets as it zoomed by.

[Dayleen]

Yup....them ugly Koi all right. :P It doesn't show well but their fins and tails are covered, they look a half inch thich in places....poor babies.

I can just imagine your guy taking off on you....sounds really cute....doing the snatch and dash. :lol:

[Jackie Ramo]

Dayleen that sounds nasty, I guess at this point they are used to them but I'd think it has a base of discomfort or at least a odd feeling when trying to swim.

Had a peek at Zoomer this afternoon and he looks like all the red is now gone. Temp up to 66F now. I did an extra big water change and cleaned the bioforce filter. Will have to keep my eye on the WQ for a few days.

[Jackie Ramo]

Terri, I'm going to net that baby "zoomer' again tomorrow. I'm not happy with the rate of healing. The pox looks bigger but its really hard to tell as its living up to its name :)

[Terri]

Do what you gotta do... fins still "shrinking"?

[Jackie Ramo]

When the fish zooms from one side of the pond to the other 20 times in 20 seconds, its sort of hard to see exactly what is going on. I just don't like the look of one of the fins and the vent fin seems to have a lump now.

[Jackie Ramo]

I didn't get him netted today but Zoomer looks better tha yesterday, here's a few pics, let me know what you think is the next step. BTW he lived up to his name it took 50 tries to get these bad pics.

http://jackieramo.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10001/normal_DSCN2174.JPG

http://jackieramo.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10001/normal_DSCN2181.JPG

http://jackieramo.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10001/normal_DSCN2183.JPG

[Terri]

Looks better jackie, I see no red anymore. I think just leave him/her be, you know the drill... good water, yada yada ;)

[Jackie Ramo]

No I cant't see any red today either but thought I did yesterday the lumps seem smaller as well. Darn fish is so fast and the other one looks so similar its not till its gone past you realize you are checking out the wrong darn fish :D

There is also a lump on the anal fin now that wasn't there before, the pec fin in the pic looks no better or worse with its split.

[Jackie Ramo]

Well I netted Zoomer today finally. Quick little devil and not so little anymore, quite pudgey in fact.

I decided that after looking at him I would treat him once more with iodine. You can't see in the pics but he had a bit of red on his bumps.

[Terri]

Thanks for the update. Fins look better. Pudgy? Stop feeding him Shrimp! LOL

[Jackie Ramo]

They have learned bad things from Tweet and don't eat shrimp... they like crab and oranges though :razz: Really I have been feeding very lightly but they are growing like crazy. I could not get my hand around him to hold him still.

[Jackie Ramo]

Today, seems the fin is healing or so it seems in the pic.

[Terri]

Looks much better :)

[Jackie Ramo]

You'll have to come by soon to inspect Terri. In the last couple of weeks you can almost seem them grow.

[Terri]

So when's lunch ;-) LOL you're buying right?

[Jackie Ramo]

Name the day, I put the money in a secret compartment so Smith can't steal it :-?

[Terri]

:lol:

I'll email ya later