New liner over old ?

[Dave in Innisfil]

OK, ya'll have convinced me to go EPDM over PVC, install a bottom drain instead of weekly vacuuming, P-stone filler between the flagstones, seriously consider a skimmer and filter, and reduce the amount of fish in the pond. The latter nature is taking care of. I'm reading up on skimmers and filters so I'll make an "informed" purchasing and installation decision, and generally trying to do this seemingly huge project once, right, the first time.. LOL.. famous last words of a ponder ?

Can anyone give me reason not to put the new liner over the old one ? The old liner seems like it has some black backing material that resembles landscape fabric behind it.

[Ian]

I think it may not be a bad idea to just put the EPDM liner over the old providing there is nothing underneath the old that caused the leaks. Just want to make sure there is nothing sharp to harm the new liner. I think I would also cut holes or slits in the old liner to make sure that water cannot get trapped between the two liners.
I don't always beleive in the landscape fabric or geotextile cloth under the liner and find in some applications is just a waste of money. Just cleaned out our outside pond over 7000gal and not a piece of underlay to be found. Blessed or cursed with all sand there was no need for a backing.
A bottom drain and a skimmer were the cheapest part of our pond construction and would not do without. I have to find a picture of our skimmer to show how cheap easy and reliable one can be .

[Busy B]

Was it a DIY skimmer or a store bought Ian? I'm in need of one too.

We have sand also...all those blankets that have hung around from the kids forever I used for underlayment. I've heard of newspaper but think that would really break down fast.

[Wayne S.]

The need for under liner protection depends on the conditions in the soil. In a pond like Ian's that is in sandy soil there isn't anything to protect from. In a pond like mine that was built in clay soil with lots of small rocks/stones and near large trees it makes much more sense. As the soil goes through freeze and thaw cycles small stones can shift so you may not see any when you are finished digging, they can move around later.
Old liners make an excellent material as does carpet (no staples), an inch or so of sand as well as the commercial fabric. Thick layers of newspaper can be used but would deterorate in a few/several years depending on how thick the layer.
I was at someones pond yesterday doing a repair. His liner is only 20mil. thick. This is the 5th major leak he has had in the last 2 years so make sure to get a proper thickness (40+).

Wayne S.

[Jackie Ramo]

To me it seem more work to pull out and dispose of the old liner than needed. Since it is already full of holes putting new ones in doesn't seem necessary either.

[OttawaPonder]

One surely needs to be sure "NOTHING" Under where a liner will go will damage it.

This goes for a new pond with any liner and more so for an older pond "which has cuts/holes and leaks" in the current line. And to know for sure before laying down a new liner over the old. To me that is only a patch job.

One could be right back to square one if one is not sure nothing is their and what caused the cuts/holes/leaks in the first place.

Hope all turns out well. Best of luck!! Please keep us posted and pictures are a must :grin:

[Dave in Innisfil]

I'm going to take most credit for the holes in the liner. New info leads us to believe the liner is 8 years old, and may not even be real pond liner. My desparate attempts to clean that muckfilled centre meant walking on the cold liner to get the pump to the centre. The combination of liner age and inexperience were its demise.

I'm interested in your skimmer, Ian. In planning and researching our pond rebuild, I was reminded that we need new front windows, roof and gutter leaks fixed, some electrical and plumbing repairs/improvements, etc etc etc. Replacing the liner is a must, installing the bottom drain and plumbing is timely, but additional pumps and skimmers would cause financial stress we don't need right now. If I can acquire used equipment, or build it myself, I'd have better luck getting it by my budgetting commitee. We're hoping to visit Terri on Saturday, and maybe some girl-to-girl talk with Tina will help.. LOL

We have lots of pics of our pond this spring, but I can't seem to post them on a thread. There's a couple on Tina's Photobucket albumn, unfortunately no real recent ones. The yard is a disaster with this big empty hole, all the flagstone pulled up and piled, no plants, and bare ground where our dogs have been confined to. We're hoping/praying to have some semblance of order by the end of May. Fishing and riding season are the highlights of our year, and soon upon us.

Our neighbors seemed to be questioning the amount of water in the area, so I'm keeping a low profile in our backyard. As quick as I pump it out, it leaks back in. I'm gonna have to pump it out again to disconnect and retreive the hard-piped bottom pump.Yesterday I finished some rebuilds to Tina's garden and new off-deck patio, and today I hope to get one of our Harleys out of storage and road worthy. Nothing like a full tank of gas, the open road, sun and wind in my face to make me forget about such things as floaters, sinkers, and other pondmares.

I'm embarrassed to admit that we're down to a handful of fish from our previous hundred. One sad koi (Roy), one sick shubunkin, and a few what I think are black moors are all that remain. Gone are all our other koi, goldfish, comets, oranda, orfe, rudds and fantails (see, I've been learning !!!!!). With Jackie's suggestions, hopefully I can save the waterplants and re-start with "pond mutts" until such time as I can provide a clean and safe environment for more sensitive and expensive fin-kids.

[Jackie Ramo]

Dave, both Ian and Greg have done DIY bottom drains so I'm sure you will find lots of help there on how to set it up. You said the pump was hard piped in... maybe some of the work has been done for you. Or at least maybe you can recycle the PVC pipes.

I'll start a thread in the garden pond section about splitting lilies. I think Bonnie IN has pics of her splits so you can see how it is done.

[Dave in Innisfil]

This morning I put power to my main pump for the first time, and damn if it didn't survive the winter, sitting in all that muck and debris. I hard-piped the water back into the lower pond so as not to add any more junk up top. After continuously running for an hour, I'd say it's a survivor.

Judging from the 4" pipe and fittings I've found in the rubble, I'd say a bottom drain was in the works. The main pump was previously hard-lined (1.5" PVC pipe) to the upper pond, and still is. I added a hard-lined 3/4" conduit to the bottom to overcome my air lines freezing solid in the winter (again). With the upcoming liner repair, I'm going to have to undo all the pipe and electrical work, not an easy feat when the water pours faster than I can pump it out.

Today the fin-kids are getting another water change. The water has now cleared up since adding all those plants (dirty water now settled). I'd love to split up some of the iris and lillies before returning them to the lower pond. Baskets and soil standing by........willing pupil here.......advice/assistance greatly appreciated, thanks.

[Dave in Innisfil]

Local pond technician said the existing liner isn't worth fixing. I'll replace it with the 45 mil EPDM, contrary to his recommendation. I'm going to use the old liner and it's underpad under the new liner, duct taping the tears so they can't hurt the new liner, and clean out any stones or debris.

It can't be rocket science to install a new liner, is it ?

[Jackie Ramo]

No, but it does take considerable muscle!!! They are heavy and never want to go where you want them to. Planning and team work are needed.

[Dave in Innisfil]

I regret to announce that we have had to put our re-lining the bottom pond into the future-soon category. After arranging for a wide array of muscle to assist us on the long weekend, I've hit a couple of financial and material road blocks that force me to postpone for a while. Last night we "rescued" another German Shepherd, bringing the household fur-kid total now to 3. The first hour, the new dog fell in the near empty pond, shredding the liner in his escape. Any thoughts about temporarily patching the existing liner are now impossibilities.

So, Roy the Koi and 5 of his tough friends will have to be satisfied with the 2,000 gallon upper pond for a while. I added the "beneficial bacteria" that was recommended to me, and now everything is a lovely shade of algae. I invested in a large piece of netting (thanks for the info, Ian), so the fish don't have to worry about preditors any more. I don't know why, but tarping the upper pond just seem to make the fish die faster. Now, all the fish have to worry about is me...LOL. I started my new job on Monday, and hopefully we'll be able to go ahead with our re-lining after a couple of paychecks.

Thanks all for your advice.

[Jackie Ramo]

Dave it happens to us all at one time or another. I've been postponing quite a few things recently....

Have you set up some kind of filter for the upper pond? 2,000 gallons is not to be sneezed at for the fish. A couple of 55 gallon barrel filters and they can be happy there all summer.

[Dave in Innisfil]

After some juggling and prioritizing, we've opted to go ahead with getting the liner. I'm off to Eugene's this morning, trailer in tow. Our backyard is a disaster, with a 10,000 gallon hole that gets stinky real fast, flagstone piled everywhere. We're too houseproud to ignore it until sunnier financial times. The liner party is back on, with some pond re-construction planned for Saturday, and some strong backs showing up on Sunday to help with the installation. Rumour has it the liner will weigh about 700lbs, so the more hands the merrier.

No, Jackie, other than having all my plants in the top pond, I have no filtration. I'm doing 25% water change outs every other day in lieu of filtration. I've taken a fatalist approach to my remaining fish. I'd love to save Roy the Koi, and have spent considerably so far in that attempt. But enough is enough. We'll start with fresh fish once we get the main pond fixed, and after we will work on filtration and possibly re-lining the upper pond in lieu of repairing the many cracks at the waterfalls. We filled in one of the dead corners, and I'm trying to design a skimmer for the other dead corner. It doesn't look like we're going the bottom drain route, since none of us involved at this end has the confidence that it won't leak somewhere.

I've also ran out of personal time to devote to that project. We've opted to go the pool vacuum route at this time, and hopefully with my skimmer, that will be enough for now. We've had one dog already fall into the pond, shredding the old liner, and two dogs injured slightly from playing tag amongst the stacked piles of flagstone. If we opt to go expensive koi in lieu of pond mutts in the future, I'll do the bottom drain. Who knows, maybe I'll be able to find a deal on a filter and incorporate that into the bottom drain installation. I've learned enough about pond filters to know I need to learn a lot more before I can make an educated purchase decision and workable installation.

[Jackie Ramo]

Certainly you will be happy to get the yard back again, as will the pups. a retro fit bottom drain can be put in later if you find you need it. BTW there is nothing wrong with pond mutts, I have a pond full of them :frisbee:

[Dave in Innisfil]

Since I've been touring around pond, garden and pet centres, I've developed a greater appreciation for the value of the fish I lost. Certainly not chump change to replace with equal value. And now without the fish, the pond is definitely missing them as far as eye-appeal. So today, I'll take my son to the local pet shop and let him chose a few goldies. I'm confident my pond rebuild and newly acquired knowledge will suffice for them, but figure I better add some higher level of filtration and koi knowledge before stocking up on expensive fish.

[Jackie Ramo]

Dave, just remember that you need to quarantine new fish, expecially pet shop fish which I am sorry to say are prone to arrive home sick and spread whatever they have to your wet pets.

Frankly if I was looking to add fish I'd pop down to Terri's and have a shop.

[Dave in Innisfil]

Jackie......I no longer have wet-pets.......just Roy and a few shubs that Eugene donated to our cause. All the rest, as predicted, became floaters or sinkers. Final death count was a three digit figure, many of which were koi we knew and recognized.

We're still losing at least 500 gallons a day behind the waterfall, so more construction/re-lining is in the near future. I've also removed the protective netting, once again exposing my ponds to mink, heron, ravens and coons. I see their tracks in the sand where the flagstone should be.

Let's see if I can get $20 worth of feeder goldfish through a winter before being entrusted with some of Terri's fin-kids ????? LOL

[Jackie Ramo]

Dave, feeders are not good fish... I don't know how to say this kindly but they are the dregs of the fish world full of disease and deformaties, only good food for other fish and heart ache waiting to happen for anyone purchasing them for another reason... you've had enough problems don't buy a few hundred more with that 20 bucks.

[Dave in Innisfil]

I appreciate your advice, as always, and your point is well taken. And this fall, when our ponds get properly shut down, any surviving goldies can be transfered to the upper pond, and remain there to live or die over the winter, with NO HEARTACHE. Roy and his shub chums will be kept in the vented and aeriated main pond. Provided they survive the winter, we'll make a spring trip to Terri and let her come up with a good mix of fish we can treasure, pond mutts or pedigrees. Those goldfish to me are like an annual garden plants. Enjoy for the season, replace next year. Losing 104 mature fish, many of them koi in the 6 to 12 inch range has left me kinda leary.

After 4 months of unemployment, I'm thankful enough not to be looking at a 10,000 gallon hole in our backyard. Now I'm having to stretch dollars to come up with the aggregates to PROPERLY finish the flagstone. We're still not sure if we're going to fill in the remaining dead corner to make a pondside eating area.

Before I start spending hundreds on fish, I'm going to have to come up with better filtration too. Right now, the upper pond is fed from the bottom of the lower pond, with the water being filtered only thru plants and lava rock. I'd like nothing better than to be able to go out and buy a ready made filter, but right now I can't afford to buy something capable of handling 12,000 gallons this year. So I'll work on a homemade filter and skimmer over this year.

Ponding is just one of many past times we have, and unfortunately it's budget for both time and financial resources has been well surpassed for this fiscal year....LOL

[Jackie Ramo]

Well, I do hope those feeders don't bring disease with them, poor Roy has been through enough. with the two ponds connected what one has, so will the other.

The June meeting of the koi club is going to be talking about DIY - can't remember if Ian is giving a talk on barrel filters.. Terri will fiil us in

[Dave in Innisfil]

Another weekend house guest arrived last night, so our flagstone party will just be a two person event. Tina's disgusted with the sand the dogs keep dragging into the house, so she's taking our foster and puppy on a road trip today and hopes when she gets back all the flagstone and pond edging is done. The weather is cloudy and overcast, so no doubt there will be more work done than beer drank unless it starts to rain.

Roy has become nocturnal, and spends most of his days hiding under a rock plant stand I constructed. He's been joined by a half dozen larger shubs that I just couldn't resist when I went to get more floating waterplants. We're having some difficulty identifying the difference between water iris and the different rushes, but I guess once they flower or not we'll know. The lilies are now starting to break the surface of the water, and there's even some blooms on my arrowheads. I think the fish are eating the salvinia, which just seemed to disappear days after I put it in. My skimmer has been modified yet once again, each modification has increased the in-flow, and now I can skim off the surface clean within a couple of hours. The water is fairly clear, very little string algae, but plenty of "construction dirt" on the liner and rockery. It's loose dirt, which I'll be able to rinse off with the garden hose once we've reached the "no more construction" phase. After seeing Cin's pic, I modified our pond front to allow both children to dip their feet, and dogs to get a drink. The pool noodle edging has taken some re-working, but I'm happy with the final version we've come up with. It saves buying a lot of bricks and stone, and I'm hoping will survive the test of winter.

It's soooooooo nice to sit in my chair in the evening and gaze at the lit pond. Can't see the flagstone edging work-in-progress in the dark....LOL

[Busy B]

Little by Little Dave...

:grin:...be glad you have dark...I can see all the stuff, I'm supposed to be doing, all day.

[Jackie Ramo]

You are making good headway Dave. How about a pic or two now?

[Dave in Innisfil]

My turn to brag. I've got tadpoles !!!! Not quite as colourful as koi, but I gotta zillion of them in both ponds. Bad news for my insect population which forces indoor retreat as the sun goes down, good news for our resident garter snake (nice diet change from goldfish). Hope Sammy the Snake doesn't mind toad... LOL. Any frogs I brought home soon became extinct.

We managed to get about half the flagstone re-laid, and most of the edging done this past weekend. The recommendation to go granite screenings in lieu of p-stone or limestone screenings has so far been a good one. We tried all three in different area's to compare, and the nicest end result was the granite. Levelling will be chore, but we want to wait a bit for some settling.

My DIY skimmer concept is working, but I'm having some difficulty in separating the good from the bad. All the salvinia I bought seems to have ended up in the skimmer, and I'm not about to try picking it out leaf by leaf. My floating plants are contained by air lines connected in a circle, and are thriving. We have had our first iris blooms, and purple lily pads are popping to the surface all over. Now the plants are thriving, we realize some placement mistakes we've made. The iris and rushes have grown so tall they block our view. I'd like to take them off their milk crate stands and put them right on the bottom of the pond, but with so many blooms about to come out, I'll add it to my "later list". I'm having mixed luck with my parrot feather, some growing well, other not so well. Because of Roy's castle, we still have a dead spot corner, but I'm thinking a water feature in that corner might solve the stagnation.

Our air pump gave up half the ghost, and ripped one diaphram. I tried gluing it, but will little temporary sucess. I'm now reduced to one of two working outlets, which won't allow me to aeriate both ponds because of different heights/depths. I've temporarily rigged up an aquarium pump to take care of the top pond, but another pump will have to be purchased before the winter ice comes.

The fish seem to be thriving in both ponds. Roy goes beserk at dusk for some reason, what I think you might call "flashing". If I didn't know better (and I admitt to knowing next to nothing), I'd say he was hunting the goldfish. He cruises the pond like a shark, just below the surface, and aggressively darts right into stands of iris. Wierd, eh ? I must admitt I get more individual viewing pleasure out of the shubs and Roy, but it's nice to watch the water boil with little fishies at feeding time too.

Yes, I'll get a couple of pics posted somehow. It's finally getting to the point where I'm not embarassed, but I still see centuries of work whether by sunlight or solar light. I'm a classic insomniac, so it's nice to have my 3 am cigarette overlooking the pond. Tina knows where to find me......LOL

[Jackie Ramo]

:grin: Dave the fish are often more active in the evening. If he is in fact flashing adnd not swimming around having fun, check the pH in am and pm to make sure you don't have a shift. a shift will cause them to flash.

Sounds like it is all coming up great. Give us Pics!@!! we want pics!!!

[Dave in Innisfil]

I sent a couple of pics to you, Jackie. Did you get them or is there a problem with the way I sent them, or did you post them somewhere these tired eyes can't find ?

[Cinnamon]

Dave they are posted a few lines down. The title is Dave's Pictures! They are awesome btw :) Good job!

[Dave in Innisfil]

Found 'em. Kinda in a haze over being fired for doing my job today.

[Cinnamon]

Oh Dave!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I would be in a haze also. You haven't been working there long. I am sorry to hear that stroke of bad luck for you :(

[Dave in Innisfil]

We took my dismissal rather well. Had a nice BBQ, followed by a long evening ride on the bike, some serious discussions on my new Mr Mom position, and a philosophical approach that it's their loss and a better job/company is out there somewhere. A quick inventory of materials vs my Honey-Do-list, and I've got enough "home work" to keep me indefinitely employed. Since I've managed to teach my fish so quickly that prepared food is only available inside my feeding ring, we're wondering if I could start a goldfish/koi circus and charge admission ? :lol:

[Jackie Ramo]

Dave, I don't know what kind of work you are into but here in TO, anybody that can lay flag stone and fix the odd thing is making a killing here and you wait for weeks for them to show up to do it!!!

[Busy B]

Great attitude to a unexpected life change Dave..

Hubby always says..."I was looking for a job, when I found this one"....A man of your resources should have an easier time, when your ready to adventure for another.

[Dave in Innisfil]

We had a visitor to our ponds who thought I missed my calling, and now the locals are even coming to me for help with their ponds. I still haven't heard back from the local pond "expert" who was to provide me with an estimate on re-lining our ponds, and that was almost two months ago. Unfortunately, I suffer from much physical pain as a result of two near fatal motorcycle wrecks, so extended physical labour such as laying patio and flagstones is a chemically-induced and supported endeavor for me (T3's my favourite vitamin). My background is almost 20 years of high tech sales, very white collar considering the dirt encrusted in my skin from all this blue collar work I find so satisfying. For the past three years I've been working in high voltage construction (hard work in all elements but very lucrative). This temporary sales job was more a test to see if I still "have it". I will once again try to find work in a sales capacity, but until then if it pays well, I'm interested... LOL