Merlin
04-13-2005, 02:51 PM
Hi all some of you may have already read about Lucky on another forum, but Jackie has asked me to tell her tale here for the benefit of those who do not know her story. (Lucky was the name I gave her)
First of all this is the Koi in question.http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v626/Chateauwizard/Picture132.jpg
Some time ago my youngest son approached me to ask if I could have a look at a Koi from his friends dads pond, as he thought there was a problem with it.
As I had been a member of another Koi forum for some time and thought to myself , well if I can not identify the problem I am sure someone on the forum would be able to help.
My son and his friend brought Lucky over to me a few days later ( had I known she was a fair size Koi , I would have preferred to have seen her in her own environment rather than stress her out by moving her.) On inspection as you may see in the photo, she was very large around the middle and looked quite swollen. There were no raised scales, and her gills were a nice color so my first thoughts were egg compaction. I decided to do what ever I could to help Lucky, as I did not have any real clue as to her problem I placed her in my qt tank, with some salt to ease her stress, and went to work in finding answers.
I posted the details on the forum and asked for help, and as with this forum ( when help is needed) answers came flooding in as to what the cause may be, and what to try to relieve the problem. The more answers I received the more it looked like this problem was too big for me to handle, Poss egg compaction, Poss Tumor. I decided to start with the possibility of egg compaction, I kept Lucky in the qt, raised the salt level , and warmed the water up. Throughout the folowing week she was still eating OK and swimming OK, then I started to notice her staying in one location in the qt, when I approached her she would swim away, but when I went back she was back in the same place again. I thought she might like some company, so added a Golden Offer that had a deformed spine ( another rescued fish ).
As I was seeing no improvement I decided that she would need to see a vet, as this was not my fish I approached the owner to explain that his Koi needed veter nary treatment. The answer I received was that he was not prepared to spend any money on the Koi, and basically told me to knock it on the head and put it in the bin. :-x . That was something I would never do, I decided there and then that I would do what ever was needed to try and help Lucky, she was not a quitter and neither was I.
Finding a vet that deals with aquatics was not easy, but I managed to find one some 20 miles from where I lived, and a few days later we were in his surgery. He gave Lucky the once over and his first thoughts were that it was NOT ( remember that) a Tumor, he though more a retention of fluid. He proceeded to draw of around 40ml of Orange brown fluid from her abdomen.
He then injected her with some antibiotics and informed me that I would have to follow his procedure over the coming 2 weeks. As I have never injected a fish before let alone drain fluid from one, I was to say the least somewhat nervous at the thought, so asked him to show me how and where to inject.
He asked me if I wanted a sample of the drawn fluid sent of to the lab for analysis, adding that this alone would add £60 to the bill for treating Lucky. As I wanted to find out for sure what her problem was I agreed. I had to phone back a week later for the results.
OK first day of the Injection and fluid removal, as Lucky seemed OK with the vet doing it, I decided not to knock her out and try to be as quick as I could.
so with my wife gently holding her I proceeded first to withdraw some fluid, I used a larger needle for this task, and removed around 30ml, I then injected her with antibiotics just behind the dorsal fin ( avoiding the back bone ) and sprayed both injection sites with antibiotics, placed her back in the qt and watched her for a while to make sure she was OK. ( dreading the though I had to do it all over again the following week). A few hours later Lucky was at the top of the qt waiting for her dinner.
OK a week later, I phoned the vet and to be honest the answer I got from him was not helpful. It is not a Tumor, and it is not an infection or egg compaction. OK, so what is it , to this he replied keep on draining her, and if there is no improvement bring her back in. So after over £100 I was still in the dark as to the problem. At a later date I tried to get a copy of the lab report, but the vet either failed to return my calls, or was unavailable. :-x .
The Draining was showing no improvement, and I had now run out of antibiotic ( not easy to come by in the UK). I could not give up, I traced and phoned a number of Aquatic vets, but they would not help me with either antibiotics or Needles ( I thought it wrong to Carry on using the same needles). Eventually my own animal vet agreed to help me out with what ever I needed. :wink: . I decided to drain Luck once every two weeks rather than every week, as there was less and less fluid coming out, no real change to her size. As the time went by I started to find lucky had taken to lying on her side, every time I thought " thats it, she has gone" as soon as I touched her she was off swimming round ( I will add that as she did not have any outlaying bugs I would put her in the pond with the other fish, at least she may be a bit happier in there).
I did one final drain but decided to knock her out as it would give me time to give her a good look over, so 6 drops of Clove oil and she was out for the count. Drained around 5ml, checked her gills which were now turning a pale pink ( Not good) did a scrape and found nothing. I realized that no matter what I did I was only prolonging the final outcome, so called in a vet to put her to sleep. The vet asked me if I wanted him to open her up and examine her, but for some strange reason I felt that was something I had to do.
I posted the photos of what I found on the forum, and the majority of replies felt that she did indeed have a tumor , not only did the so called lab miss it, but also at a later date I was made aware that the vet should have known, that when he first drained Lucky, the fact that the fluid was reddy brown in color meant that she did have an infection. :-x. ( letters of those findings were sent to the veter nary practice, and that vet no longer practices there).
In my mind I have often thought did I do right by trying to keep Lucky alive, or did I just prolong her agony. I know one thing that I have learnt though this experience, and this is good advice for all you people new to keeping a pond. A lot of the advice I was given went over my head, it was far beyond my comprehension. When I should have asked the person to break down their advice as I am a novice, I did not as I felt that they might think me a little stupid, (of course that would not have been the case), and that is a lesson I will not forget. At anytime if you are unsure of any advice you are given on this or any other forum, ask them to explain in more detail, they will be more than happy to oblige.
I will now find the two pics of the autopsy I did on Lucky ( I buried them as I did not want to look at them again ) I hope in some way this story helps if in the future you have a sick Koi with a simular problem.
First of all this is the Koi in question.http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v626/Chateauwizard/Picture132.jpg
Some time ago my youngest son approached me to ask if I could have a look at a Koi from his friends dads pond, as he thought there was a problem with it.
As I had been a member of another Koi forum for some time and thought to myself , well if I can not identify the problem I am sure someone on the forum would be able to help.
My son and his friend brought Lucky over to me a few days later ( had I known she was a fair size Koi , I would have preferred to have seen her in her own environment rather than stress her out by moving her.) On inspection as you may see in the photo, she was very large around the middle and looked quite swollen. There were no raised scales, and her gills were a nice color so my first thoughts were egg compaction. I decided to do what ever I could to help Lucky, as I did not have any real clue as to her problem I placed her in my qt tank, with some salt to ease her stress, and went to work in finding answers.
I posted the details on the forum and asked for help, and as with this forum ( when help is needed) answers came flooding in as to what the cause may be, and what to try to relieve the problem. The more answers I received the more it looked like this problem was too big for me to handle, Poss egg compaction, Poss Tumor. I decided to start with the possibility of egg compaction, I kept Lucky in the qt, raised the salt level , and warmed the water up. Throughout the folowing week she was still eating OK and swimming OK, then I started to notice her staying in one location in the qt, when I approached her she would swim away, but when I went back she was back in the same place again. I thought she might like some company, so added a Golden Offer that had a deformed spine ( another rescued fish ).
As I was seeing no improvement I decided that she would need to see a vet, as this was not my fish I approached the owner to explain that his Koi needed veter nary treatment. The answer I received was that he was not prepared to spend any money on the Koi, and basically told me to knock it on the head and put it in the bin. :-x . That was something I would never do, I decided there and then that I would do what ever was needed to try and help Lucky, she was not a quitter and neither was I.
Finding a vet that deals with aquatics was not easy, but I managed to find one some 20 miles from where I lived, and a few days later we were in his surgery. He gave Lucky the once over and his first thoughts were that it was NOT ( remember that) a Tumor, he though more a retention of fluid. He proceeded to draw of around 40ml of Orange brown fluid from her abdomen.
He then injected her with some antibiotics and informed me that I would have to follow his procedure over the coming 2 weeks. As I have never injected a fish before let alone drain fluid from one, I was to say the least somewhat nervous at the thought, so asked him to show me how and where to inject.
He asked me if I wanted a sample of the drawn fluid sent of to the lab for analysis, adding that this alone would add £60 to the bill for treating Lucky. As I wanted to find out for sure what her problem was I agreed. I had to phone back a week later for the results.
OK first day of the Injection and fluid removal, as Lucky seemed OK with the vet doing it, I decided not to knock her out and try to be as quick as I could.
so with my wife gently holding her I proceeded first to withdraw some fluid, I used a larger needle for this task, and removed around 30ml, I then injected her with antibiotics just behind the dorsal fin ( avoiding the back bone ) and sprayed both injection sites with antibiotics, placed her back in the qt and watched her for a while to make sure she was OK. ( dreading the though I had to do it all over again the following week). A few hours later Lucky was at the top of the qt waiting for her dinner.
OK a week later, I phoned the vet and to be honest the answer I got from him was not helpful. It is not a Tumor, and it is not an infection or egg compaction. OK, so what is it , to this he replied keep on draining her, and if there is no improvement bring her back in. So after over £100 I was still in the dark as to the problem. At a later date I tried to get a copy of the lab report, but the vet either failed to return my calls, or was unavailable. :-x .
The Draining was showing no improvement, and I had now run out of antibiotic ( not easy to come by in the UK). I could not give up, I traced and phoned a number of Aquatic vets, but they would not help me with either antibiotics or Needles ( I thought it wrong to Carry on using the same needles). Eventually my own animal vet agreed to help me out with what ever I needed. :wink: . I decided to drain Luck once every two weeks rather than every week, as there was less and less fluid coming out, no real change to her size. As the time went by I started to find lucky had taken to lying on her side, every time I thought " thats it, she has gone" as soon as I touched her she was off swimming round ( I will add that as she did not have any outlaying bugs I would put her in the pond with the other fish, at least she may be a bit happier in there).
I did one final drain but decided to knock her out as it would give me time to give her a good look over, so 6 drops of Clove oil and she was out for the count. Drained around 5ml, checked her gills which were now turning a pale pink ( Not good) did a scrape and found nothing. I realized that no matter what I did I was only prolonging the final outcome, so called in a vet to put her to sleep. The vet asked me if I wanted him to open her up and examine her, but for some strange reason I felt that was something I had to do.
I posted the photos of what I found on the forum, and the majority of replies felt that she did indeed have a tumor , not only did the so called lab miss it, but also at a later date I was made aware that the vet should have known, that when he first drained Lucky, the fact that the fluid was reddy brown in color meant that she did have an infection. :-x. ( letters of those findings were sent to the veter nary practice, and that vet no longer practices there).
In my mind I have often thought did I do right by trying to keep Lucky alive, or did I just prolong her agony. I know one thing that I have learnt though this experience, and this is good advice for all you people new to keeping a pond. A lot of the advice I was given went over my head, it was far beyond my comprehension. When I should have asked the person to break down their advice as I am a novice, I did not as I felt that they might think me a little stupid, (of course that would not have been the case), and that is a lesson I will not forget. At anytime if you are unsure of any advice you are given on this or any other forum, ask them to explain in more detail, they will be more than happy to oblige.
I will now find the two pics of the autopsy I did on Lucky ( I buried them as I did not want to look at them again ) I hope in some way this story helps if in the future you have a sick Koi with a simular problem.