My first spring with a pondmare

[Dave in Innisfil]

Last May, I took possession of a home with a two-tier 8000 gallon pond system. The previous owner left little information regarding the history or upkeep of the ponds. The smaller, shallower top pond was partially filled with plants, with some lillies and rushes in the larger, deeper bottom pond. Resident were a large number (100 I guess) of fish, varying in size from about 18 inches to just a couple. No idea if they are koi or fancy goldfish, my expertise lies in game fish. The ice has almost fully melted on top of the pond, and I'm beginning to see movement in some of the fish, as well as a lack of movement (terminal) in more each day. There are no where near as many fish in the pond, and I'm really hoping they aren't like the half dozen I retrieved today. The visibility at the absolute bottom of the pond is crowded by existing pots of plants. The fish I retrieved today were suspended in some stringy algae, others I've retrieved have been floating. Two common characteristics with the dead fish are extended bellies, and open sores on their sides. Some fish still swimming seem to have the same problem. I cut off feeding them in October, and haven't fed them anything yet. I am guilty of trying to keep the pond surface open by occassionally chiselling a hole in the surface when my air pump's bubbler couldn't overcome the extreme cold. I'm sure my dogs and son playing on the pond's ice surface kinda stressed the fish too. The local garden centre suggested adding peat pellets, and doing some research on the net, which I've done. Now I don't know if I should be adding more peat pellets, salt, water conditioner, or whatever. Kinda information overload, and the only thing in common seems to be to throw money at the problem until it goes away, or restock with sunfish.

The water is crystal clear, but there is quite a bit of leaf and other organic debris covering the bottom of the pond. Because of several cracks in the liner at the waterfall, I can't start the pump to get circulation going (if I should ??). I have the liner repair materials, but was told to wait until the material is less brittle before doing repairs. I have an unused submersible fountain pump I could hook up if recommended.

Anyways, I'd appreciate advice from someone who isn't trying to sell me something, and from what I've read so far, ya'll seem like a knowledgeable friendly bunch.

Thanks in advance

Dave in Innisfil

[Jackie Ramo]

Dave, Welcome to the board. Sorry you are having such problems.

Lets start with the water. Do you have a water test kit and have you tested for ammonia, nitrites, pH and kH. At reading your post my first guess without more information is there is an ammonia problem and probably a bacteria problem in the water. The sores sound like ulcers and fish when dead tend to swell up and float, they don't always float but those that do, swell with gas.

So the first step is to test the water so we know what is there. Also test the source water so we know what is being added, then I'd do a water change. Even in the best of circumstances fish like fresh water more so now.

The second step is to remove as much debris and muck as you can without stirring it up too much. A shopvac with an extended nozzle is helpful, I use the crevise tool or pointy attachment to vac my pond. This is on the assumption you do not have bottom drains in the ponds.

Maybe the waterchange after the clean up.... depending on what you can do. If you can do a clean out now than change the water after, if time does not allow a clean up than a 25% water change would benefit the fish.

[Dave in Innisfil]

Thanks for your input, and tomorrow I'll get the necessary water test kits.

The water in the pond is a combination of what was originally in the pond last fall, with a mid-winter top-up from the tap when the water level for some inexplicable reason dropped almost a foot overnight, and of course the melt from snow and ice, with unfortunately a smidge or so of doggie poo I didn't get to before it became unsafe to venture on the surface. To change or add water to the pond, I usually pump directly from my deep well into the pond. Unfortunately, my well pump was another victim of winter (how was I to know it was suppose to be drained and brought inside ?) and I'm in the process of repairing that too, with some improvements in convenience in adding water to the pond (lots of liner leaks and evaporation). I'm hoping to have it functional within the week. The water is currently at it's regular depth in both ponds, but I'm kinda ignoring the smaller top bog pond until after I repair the waterfall leak, then I can start my circulation pump

The centre of the pond, the deepest part, is pretty well inaccessible unless I put on chest wadders and a diving mask, and that's where most of the debris seems to lie. The largest ingredient in the debris are spruce needles and poplar leaves from my neighbor's trees. I've taken to skimming the top, and gently the shallow arms which aren't still frozen (4-leaf clover-shaped bottom pond). I am encouraged somewhat because I have seen one of the smaller fish (3 inches to me is small) has survived, and so has my largest koi (looks now about 18") But a few fish seem sickly and I'm wondering whether I should be considering bringing them inside for some upclose TLC.

I'll get back to you when I have water test results.

[Jackie Ramo]

If you can bring them in and keep them in until the pond is fixed it would be perfect but we know we don't live in aperfect world and keeping fish inside is not problem free.

How many fish do you think are left outside and how many look ill?

[Dave in Innisfil]

Bad news is the smallest surviving fish is now belly up, but the good news is my largest fish is swimming very aggressively. I now can count about a dozen fish swimming and looking well, but four that don't look or move so well.

I do have a 70 gallon aquarium the previous owner left behind, that does hold water, and a small aquarium air pump that could probably be put into service with some effort. I'm now thinking I should have brought a bunch of fish indoors for the winter, typically too smart too late.

[Busy B]

I'm not quite sure why you were recommended to use peat pellets..seems that would add to the problem...I'd get the dead out first and try and treat the fish that look the worse..Do you have a thermometer so you can see how cold the water is? Maybe your well water will be close to the same temp at this point so there's not so much stress on them...sounds like they could use a fresh drink.

Sorry for all your troubles..a crash course in pond keeping.

[Jackie Ramo]

Depending on the size of fish 70 gallons is not much room for 4 of them. Do you have nets etc to catch them with?

[Terri]

Hi Dave :)
I think what would be a priority right now is to get the bottom pond clean now before the water really starts to warm up and things get worse not better. In your case I think it's a good idea to remove the fish to do this.. and at this point I think you and your family need to make some tough choices on "who" stays and "who" goes of those that are left. Set up that 70 gallon - use half pond water and half dechlorinated tap water(match the water temperature to pond temp), you'll need a filter not just the air stone&pump. This set up will do in a pinch but keep your eye out for something bigger - like a 150 to 200 gallon stock tank(got a farm supply store near by? isn't there a barrel supply place on the 400? see if I can't find their number for you - if I can remember their name LOL)

Unless you know someone with a pool vac or a pond vac you are going to have to shop-vac all the crap that's accumilated on the pond bottom, handy to have that little drain in those wet/dry shop-vac's :wink:

Once you get that test kit please post what the readings are for your pond. If you can find a Master Test kit all the better than spending $'s on individual kits. pH and KH(carbonate hardnes) are two values we will want to know. Ammonia, Nitrite, Nitrate to follow. As mentioned test your well water and tap water too - note though that tap water should be either left to sit for a few hours or aerated for several minutes before testing for pH.

Get rid of those barley pellets... pure crap %(

[Dave in Innisfil]

First glance at my pond this morning shows two more floaters trapped in the thin overnight ice, another trapped in thick ice thawing, and another lying motionless on the second level, but more viewable active fish in the one corner. The water temperature is still under 40 (24 inches down). Our local pond supply store doesn't open until 10, so I'm killing time and picking up doggie poo until then

Here's an idea I wanna run past ya'll. I can clean up my smaller, shallower top pond (about 2000 galllons) much quicker than the bottom pond, which will need almost half the water drained to give me access to the deep bottom middle where most of the muck has accumulated (no bottom drain I know of)with hip waders. I do have a 4' X 2' X 1' black PVC bin (another mysterious left over from the previous owner) I could put into service. The 70 gallon indoor aquarium solution hasn't met with a warm response from my housemate (more than a girlfriend, loved too much to be made a wife). My thinking is the smaller pond will heat up quicker and has been ice free for about a week now. I have a variety of fish nets, from minnow dippers to muskie cradles, one which if I add a broom handle to will give me some reach. A friend with a garden pond suggested buying several boxes of cheap table salt and adding that to the top pond. I've never tried my shop vac on wet applications, and have previously used a child's plastic garden rake to pull up debris to a level I can get it with my larger pool surface skimmer. Good news/bad news is I get my 5 year old son from Thurs thru Sun, which puts pond-time behind daddy-time and puppy-time. Geez, when am I gonna find time to look for a paying job.....LOL

[Dave in Innisfil]

http://photobucket.com/albums/v236/Tina12345/

Ya'll seem to know each other so this will give you some snap shots into our busy lives.This is a link to our photo albumn, which contains pictures of our pond set up, and fur-kids. Beni is my large standard GSD male (4 years old), and Lia is my smaller long-coated female (9 months old). Both are rescue puppies, as Tina and I are active memebers of the Toronto German Shepherd Rescue organization. We acquired Lia from a Memphis animal shelter and Ben from the Aurora SPCA. When we aren't working on our fixer-upper/handyman special home or exercising our pups, we enjoy motorcycle touring. It's been personally agonizing to hear all the bikes drive by while I stand helpless at my pond's edge, both Harleys needing work before their street worthy. With your help, hopefully we'll be able to enjoy some pond viewing from our porch rather than tears at pond's edge.

[Wulff]

I'm assumming you bought the property with no prior experience with ponds and if so how much with aquariums? If you have some working knowledge you can apply most of that to the ponds.

Im only guessing but from the sounds of it, the fish load sounds high (100?) and may be the source if the ponds froze over without allowing for exchange. As others have noted your likely going to have to make arrangements for the fish, so you can get into the ponds, clean them, do some water changes etc. As a first time ponder this probably isn't what you wanted to hear or were prepared for if your missing some or most requirements ( some means of vaccumming) and a Q-tank etc.

Im a novice myself but thats what id concentrate on for now....finding a means to hold and house the fish while you address the problems in the ponds and also keep it cheap and in short notice. The one aquarium you have is a start and at 70 gallons you can probably get away with couple of the larger fish or a dozen or so smaller ones. Beyond that anything that will hold water will do, even a un used bathtub imo to a kiddie pool ;) ) for a week or two.

Then you'll need a means to filter that which again imo (im a novice) given this is something of a stop-gap to stop the bleeding as it were could be little more than a box filter with matting just for mechanical. Basically try to find something you can house the fish in for a little while, which in turn will give the you time and means to address the ponds. What kind of filter sysytem do the ponds have and could it be used/transported to your basement/garage temporary (whatever).


Beyond that is there any way you can "isolate" the top pond? Im assuming its going to be the smaller of the two and all you would need to do, once its cleaned out, is to keep the water level lower than the wier (waterfall) so it doesnt spill into the lower pond.That would allow you to use that pond once its cleaned out without worrying about finishing cleaning the assumed larger/deeper pond or the leaks in the water fall. Get that pond cleaned and upto speed first. The sooner you can drain it and clean it , top it up (below the weir) the better.

/edit
In my rush to reply I must have missed your post right above mine :)

Yes, that is exactly what id do.
Get the smaller pond cleaned out. Drain it, power wash it (if you have one), vaccum out the gunk or do it by hand, just be preapred for the smell its not going to be nice :). Who knows your kids may enjoy helping :). If you have a power washer and sop vac you can probably have that pond ready togo in a few hours.

Refill it and then hook up the filter system with the submersible pump in the top pond and just keep the water level lower than the weir. Treat the water and then start it up. By Sun morn you could likely start transferring the fish over.

[Jackie Ramo]

Looks like Wulf was posting at the same time as you Dave. Yes, clean the smaller pond up and store the fish in there. Remove all plants, if kept wet they will survive but as we don't know all that we may be dealing with its just safer to keep them out, gives the fish more room as well and less chance for them to knock the pots over making a mess.

Koi have very soft scales and are easily damanged. A fisherman's net isn't the best to use. herding them into a tub is best. If you read my thread called GG in sick fish section you will see the damage that can be done by improper handling.

[Terri]

Well someone's got their thinking cap on :grin:

I agree, the top pond would be quite suitable if you can get it prepared.

Table salt will work but at the cost to treat that many gallons pick up a bag of water softener salt at HD instead. And before you go adding salt you are going to need to get a salt test kit or salt meter so you know exactly the level you are adding... saying the top pond is 2000 gallons and it actually being 2000 gallons - well let's not assume that it is. Remove any plants when salt levels go above 0.15% - most plants will scream at levels of 0.3% Salt will need to be added over a period of 3 days to reach treatment levels, if added all at once the fish will not be happy...

I agree whole heartedly with Jackie, sport fish nets are not for koi and goldfish "pets", lost scales and broken fins are the last thing your fish need right now. Read this: http://backyardpuddle.com/forum/showthread.php?t=27

[Dave in Innisfil]

My top pond is 11 feet around, with an average depth of 3 feet, and no centre deep spot, and I'm estimating it at about 2700 gallons. My lower larger pond is 12 X 18, with an average depth of 3 feet, but a 4' round deep spot about 4 feet deep, and I estimated that one at 5000 gallons. The only filtration is the bog concept, lots of plants usually in the top pond spilling over into the bottom pond. The lower pond is aeriated by a mid-sized pond air pump. I had considerable experience with tropical fish breeding when younger, and practice catch-and-release on delicate muskie, so I know better than to use a string-type net to catch the fish, opting for a much softer larger butterfly net my son plays with. I won't treat my "tame fish" like I do my "game fish"....LOL...There would be little problem netting the sick fish, since they're very inactive and some on their sides. Each time I go out and look, I'm seeing both new active alive fish, and more dead ones I can't get to without stirring up the deep centre. I'm waiting for the overnight ice still to thaw so I can retrieve two more dead ones.

Quickest solution I can rigged up is a makeshift 2' X 4' X 8" deep black PVC tank, with an aquarium air pump, to hopefully serve (if recommended) as a makeshift hospital while I get the top pond cleaned up as best I can over the next few days. I'm still working on getting my well pump to work, required for adding anything more than bucketfuls from the in-house bathtub.Suggestions and advice on setting this up (type of water/ideal temp/feed or not to feed etc) before I go gung-ho on this temporary solution ? Our local pond shop isn't open until Sat, but I will endeavour to somehow get a master test kit and readings available today, as well as some salt. The local garden centres "pond experts" wanted to load me up yesterday with shopping carts full of different stuff. I'm lost when it comes to what medication or other chemicals I should be adding, and guess you folks will judge better after I can give you some specific water quality data. So, do I concentrate on leaving all the fish in the big pond until the top pond is ready to reduce stress, or start a hospital suite immediately for the sick and injured, or what ?
Or should I just forewarn all the fish that we're having Lake Simcoe perch for dinner and they could be the appetizer ? (only joking, these fish look rather bony and unfit for human consumption.

As the sunlight illuminates the bottom of the pond, I can see quite a few fish with floating strands of icky white stuff seemingly stuck to wounds or scabs, and quite a few with ugly tails, if that is any indication of anything. Most fish seem to have enlarged stomachs too. Marla has experienced something similar, and suggested I might have something called "SAP". Thoughts ? It was a very cold winter. Solutions ?

Leave the peat pellets in or remove them ?.. I've been getting advice pro and con. Who do I believe ?

Sorry for the long threads, but the secret to my problem could be in some detail I think is insignificant which in reality is a warning flag to the more experienced. Gone shopping.....back later

Dave in Innisfil

[Wulff]

Well from the sounds of it your going to need something substanstial and I *think* getting the upper pond into shape is the best bet, both for the fish if they are going to recover and for your future enjoyment of the ponds. You may as well spend time and effort where its going to pay the biggest dividends.

Im kind of surprised a pond that size with that many fish got by with just "veggie filter" and suspect your going to have alot of cleaning todo.

Quickest solution I can rigged up is a makeshift 2' X 4' X 8" deep black PVC tank, with an aquarium air pump, to hopefully serve

Just my 2c but I think you may want to convert that into a makeshift filter and it will go alot farther serving in the near term by providing some filtration for the upper pond..

I cant help with the health of the fish, others will have to answer there but that may be something to, in so much as separating the healtheir fish into the upper first and then doing what you can for the worst off. I don't know.

[Jackie Ramo]

Dave, I'd put my energies on getting the top pond cleaned out. That way you only move the fish once. Right now you are going to lose some anyway. I hope that doesn't sound hard hearted I'm just trying to be realistic here. The temp you suggested I think is too shallow to be of much help other than as Wulf states a filter. You should look at the filter threads here and after reading them you will know what questions to ask.

The only meds I'd buy right now is water softener salt it is cheap and will help the fish get over this next hump. But the evapourated stuff that is 97 98% pure I'm using Sifto Crystal which is 99.8% pure, its the best if you can find it. As long as it is salt with no additives its fine. Home depot Rona are best places to look. The ratio is 3 lbs per 100 gallons starting at 1 lb per 100 gallons then next day another pound per 100 and fnally on the 3rd day the last pounds go in. At this point your best guesstimate is fine. Its hard to overdose too much with salt and since we expect that they will be moved out soon if its higher it won't hurt. Well actually it may push the weakest over the edge but they will probably go anyway. Try to put it where the fish are not lying around. Do you have a pump to ciruclate the water a little bit near the surface? we don't want to stir the bottom.

The good news is is that is is a lovely pond and with a bit of work it will become a feature and good home for the wet pets.

[Jackie Ramo]

It makes no difference if the pellets stay in or out at this point... they are neither hurting or helping.

Buy lots of salt - we'll probably salt the upper pond as well when the fish are moved.

[Dave in Innisfil]

Ya'll seem to be of the opinion that I need to get the top pond working, so that's where my energies were concentrated on today. The well pump had to go back to the shop, and all the fittings, hoses and clamps had to be replaced. I drained half the upper pond, and once the well pump is re-installed (hopefully Saturday am), I'll be able to top it up, test, and hopefully transfer the fish. I had given it a complete fall cleaning (leaf and muck removed) and fresh water, but only weeks later turned off the pond circulation pump.

I prepped the aquarium, filled half and half, and am letting it settle. I'll pick up detox tomorrow. I figure that will become my intensive care unit for the sick ones, the healthy ones straight to the upper pond. At nightfall, the temp in the aquarium was 50, ten shy of the pond so I'm leary to transfer any.

With Terri's help line....(muches grassious) I was able to get two water tests completed. Seems my ammonia NH3 test showed almost darker than the 7.3 on the chart, indicating what was suspected. The PH test was 8.0, which I hope is a good sign. The water temperature is still only 40, and 25% of the pond is still ice covered. Sad to see frozen little bodies in the ice, and today's mortality rate was 4. but 2 had been dead a while.

As far as how my pond managed to be so clear all last year, it's probably do to the thousands of gallons of well water I had to weekly pump into the pond to combat all the leaks.

They didn't have a saline level testor, so I didn't add much of the salt I bought today. I gave the pond a few handfuls of the salt pellets as I sat on the porch pondered my pondmare, more a token offering than a treatment. I'll add the suggested amounts tomorrow, along with any more advice I can get.

Dave in Innisfil

[Jackie Ramo]

Dave, I got the pics of the dead fish etc you sent. Really could not tell much about how they died, except at least one of them died a long time ago, probably fall jusdging by the decomposition.

The liner... hard to tell from the pic if it is damage or just bad trimming by the installer... Maybe when you empty it you can pull out some wrinkles and fit it better.

I love the pond, it is very nice and I'm sure once we get things sorted out it will once again be a source of joy.

[Dave in Innisfil]

First morning the pond (excluding the aeriated centre) didn't re-freeze over night. I can see just one floater, but can't tell yet if it was recent or old. In the dark, with my hi-pwrd flashlight I counted 24 alive fish last night.

Three of those 4 dead fish were alive the previous days, but looked bad with that white stringy stuff hanging out of sores. The chunky little red one was one of our favourites, of course one of two I let Tina pick out to try and get her interested in our pond with.

3 lbs of salt per 100 gallons.......algebra time....hmmmm am I correct in calculating that I thus considering an estimated 5000 gallon lower pond.....150 Lbs ??????? I'll wait until someone confirms this before I create a new shallow end of salt pellets. Also gives me time to work up the courage to find my hip waders and remove more of the plants from the lower pond.

The whole top overspill liner of the top pond from waterfall to waterfall is shot, and still very brittle to the touch. I tried to stretch the liner last year with no luck, opting to narrow the flow to a good piece of liner. I don't think there is enough stretch for even temporary use, the water will just go thru the tears and behind the liner before it gets a chance to flow over, like it did last year, at a loss of hundreds of gallons per day.

I'm wondering how long the liner in the top pond can remain dry before it becomes brittle too ? I tried to scrub the liner with a soft car brush with some success, but am afeared of making more holes at lower levels so I didn't use much pressure. I have a heavy duty 3" construction pump I'm going to try and put into use to clean out the upper pond, designing in my head a multi-basket filter that will allow me to pump the discharge water, separate the heavier substrates, and return somewhat clearer water. My small shop vac has no water outlet, and Santa brought me a compressor instead of a power washer.

The ex called and granted me an earlier pick up today, usually good news, but eliminating any chance to install the well pump today, even if it's ready. Tina's going to help me tomorrow with the pump priming, and hopefully the well head survived the winter or we're in deep fishy doo doo for a while. Removing and disconnecting the washing machine is our only other source of water, and running a garden hose thru the house clashes with our home decor....LOL

Oh yeah, any other comments on the suggested SAP diagnosis from those in similar climates to mine ?

[Jackie Ramo]

Dave the bad news is I'm sure you have sap, ulcers and more going on there. I sure wish you could do a water change for those poor guys. Yeah add the 1 pound per 100 gallons today, that will give them some relief but add some ammonia binder also called dechorinator to lower the ammonia rates. That ammonia of 7.3 is burning their gills and killing them faster than anything else you have in there. Don't worry about over dosing, just keep adding untilt he ammonia is 0. Sooner they are in good water the better.

[Merlin]

Having just got round to reading this thread, I take my hat off to you Dave :) .you sure do have some work there, but once you get over the bad times that is going to be one hell of a nice pond. There is not much I can add to the advice you have already been given, so I will just wish you luck.

[Jackie Ramo]

Dave, did you get the sickest ones moved to the tank?

[Dave in Innisfil]

Came home to no floaters for a change.....The first 50 lb bag of salt was gone by the time I returned. I had a brain fart just before leaving, what I should have done, and what I can do now. I shoulda tested the upper pond water before I drained half of it. Test proved it had 0 ammonnia. I dug up a couple of pumps and had the lower pond pump to the upper, and visa versa.

I tried catching the fish from land, but they kept darting amongst all the plant pots and I turned my efforts elsewhere. Even the sick ones seem to know exactly where to hide or escape. The side-floaters are all dead now, and there seem about half a dozen or so with sores, but it doesn't seem to be slowing them down much once they see me with a net.

The tank has now sat for 24 hours, and the loss by leaks are only dribble. By pumping to the top pond, I've lowered the level where I can now remove the plants and move around the pond on the two foot outer shelf, and probably get to all the fish, including any rotting fish in the deeper centre. But now, with two hyper dogs and 5 year old who've been cooped up in a truck since 10 am and wants to build a Hot Wheel track, Dirty Dave just became Daddy Dave. Later I hope to be able to get Tina to oversee, while I don my waders and work on the pond, and then after Sonny goes to sleep, see if I can install the well pump and get access to that fresh water the fish so badly need.

Is it better to try and catch the fish tomorrow morning when the pond will have had a chance to settle down after removing the obstacle course, or is the danger so imminent that it's worth the risk ?

How much damage will I do if I add a couple hundred gallons of tap water directly to the mix if in fact the well head too is shot, and it will be some time before I can get into fixing that ? It can be done almost immediately, minus the detox the garden centre didn't have.

No ammonia binder in my inventory. I'm adding it to my shopping list. Back to HD for more salt tomorrow, maybe get lucky and they'll have it.

Merlin...... the pond was very enjoyable last year, despite being a lot of work, and definitely something I would like to maintain and retain. But let me tell ya, if a dump truck coulda gone thru my garage, I considered a tandem load of play sand as a quick rememdy....LOL.....

I've been reading up, and heard Malachite Green bath as suggested for SAP.
I can probably get some of that at Hydrasphere in Bradford on Saturday. Any objections to trying it, does it come with instructions, and any words of warning or advice in its usage ?

Good thing the only thing complicated about Hot Wheels is fitting one size tab into one size hole....so, I'm off to be Daddy Dave until Nurse Tina can supervise the fur 'n skin kids while Dirty Dave gets back to helping his fin-kids....

[Terri]

Prime or Amquel Plus+ are both dechlorinator and binder all in one. Hydroshere should have one of these in stock.

You can add water from the city tap to the upper pond with out worry seeing as the fish are still in the bottom pond. Put your air pump with air stone into the upper pond, this will help off gas any chlorine over the 12 to 24hrs you mentioned. The aquarium can be dealth with the same way - if it's just chlorine then it should have dissapated by now. Before you add any fish add half the required amount of dechlorinator to the water in both the pond. (If your local water treatment plant uses chloramine forget what I just stated above - chloramine does not gas off as it's binded to ammonia, you will need Amquel or Prime in this case)

What does the upper pond ammonia test read now that you've added the foul water from the bottom pond? If it's still "0" or below 2.0 then if you can catch the fish tomorrow move them uptop. Did you test the upper pond's pH? Nitrite? Nitrate?

Do you have any iodine in the house? If you are able to catch a few fish tomorrow treat their wounds with iodine before release into the upper pond. To do this you'll need a Q-tip, soak it in the iodine and then apply it to the wounds(including SAP) - make sure NOT to get ANY iodine in the fishes mouth, gills, or eyes). For the fish that are really bad off, put them in the aquarium with salt added(3TBS to 5gallons to start - repeat tomorrow, repeat the next day) This with the MG you get from Chris at Hydroshere will kill off the SAP. Honestly the salt itself alone with iodine swabbed on the effected areas should do the trick and is less stressful than MG.

If you still entend to add the fish to the upper pond forget salting the bottom and start salting the upper pond. As long as the chem you get from Hydroshere is only MG then salt addition is fine - if however you end up with a MG/Formalin mix salt has to be taken out of the equation for treatment - salt and Formalin don't mix.

Also, any chem/med added to water with the fish NEEDS to be heavily aerated as majority of treatments will significantly lower the oxygen level in water - this INCLUDES salt.

I can't think of anything else at the moment.... :-|

Hope you enjoy your time with the skin-kid. I have a Hot Wheels fanatic too :grin:

[Jackie Ramo]

Nothing to add to Terri's advice. Just keep pumping that water out of there until you can catch the fish. The sooner they are out of there the better. Tap water would be a better fill for the upper pond than anything coming out of that soup in the bottom.

[Dave in Innisfil]

After yesterday's fatalities (2 large, 2 med, 2 small), waking up no find no orange or white floaties was a relief. But the ponds re-froze last night, making my temporary water transfer program a bust until everything thaws.
Upper pond was at 48, lower at 42, so the mixing is equalizing out some of the water temps, and hopefully some of the ammonia.

Donning my leaky chest wadders (why I gave up duck hunting LOL), I braved the water last night to remove the plants I could, a mix of lillies and rushes, most pot bound. Local news didn't predict the frost last night, so I hope them being out of the water overnight didn't kill them too. Tina de-thatched most of them, and is going to take them over while I concentrate on water and fish. Most are in solid black round pots, but some are in those mess sided water plant containers, with roots protruding thru the mess, so she'll need to brush up on separating and re-potting. Most are still frozen in their pots.

I tried not to stir up the bottom, but by the time I was finished, I was working under spot lights, and the visability gave me no chance to even attempt to catch and treat any fish. Today's a new day. I'm still waiting on Hydrasphere to open tomorrow to get meds and chems.

Late night efforts turned to re-installing the rebuilt well pump. The temp in my pump room is still hovering just above freezing, confined, and smaller than most washroom cubicles. Mission unaccomplished due to severe fatigue, cold, and lack of enough clamps. I will need Tina's help to re-prime the pump, so fingers crossed on fresh water availability late today or tomorrow. It is really the only option for adding water, since I have to remove both the washer and dryer to gain access to the only 3/4" threaded fauceted water valve in the house. Attempts to attach to the kitchen and bathroom faucets met with small floods and messes I really didn't have time to clean up to Tina's satisfaction. I know ya'll want me to get them fresh water promptly and I'm working on it best and when I can.

I read JR's post......very interesting and to the point. I jotted down some details that may be insignificant to me, but white flags to you. Since I don't have a spring pond history to fall back on, it's all new to me.

Some fish are swimming fine, others rather slowly, more floating. No fish come to the surface, and there are a few that are off "sulking" but most stay with the main school. I haven't seen them rubbing themselves, and don't know what "flashing" is. Some of their fins are torn and ragged, some with ulcers, some with what looks like black spots. I haven't fed them anything yet, but have an 8% wheat germ food on standby. The only new fish added were some escapee minnows from my bait bucket (covers head and cowers), but no visible survivors. My biggest koi looks to have grown significantly over the winter, as do some of the others I recognize. Construction and clean up around the pond have not impacted upon the water. Grass fertilizer was put down Tuesday, and promised rain never came. None got anywhere near the pond, nor have any predators been seen or noted.

Sorry, but I'm not going to buy a microscope and pen protector. I'll re-stock with game fish first...LOL

The gin-clear water is now kinda green and cloudy, I presume from last night's plant removal. The surface of the water has lots of tiny pine needles floating on it, no oily film, some soapy-type white bubbles around where I'm aeriating, the bubbles being more individual than a raft. The waste build up the bottom doesn't appear to be as bad as I thought, but I still can't get at the dead centre or main pump area because of plants. It doesn't look like there's more than 2 inches of sediment on the bottom, and unless the dead fish lost all their colour, no mass graveyard. I've been gently scooping out the dead leaves from the corners, and now with plants removed, will be able to remove more. The only water source to recently contribute to the ponds was the melted ice surface and a few days of rain. The ice finally released the electrical conduit I was using to protect the air lines, so it's gone now too. Still small icebergs floating in the pond, though. Aeriation now is split to both sides of the lower pond, with a 3/4" hose puring water into the lower pond from the upper (once it thaws) to create more oxygen. I'll run a splitter off the air line and start airing the upper pond today. When/if Sonny plays with his Tonka's out back, I'll hopefully be able to do more water testing, and will try and catch some of the sicker fish and get them into the aquarium. He's at that age if I turn my back for 5 minutes, I could have a 5 hour repair job head of me, or a trip to a very un-local hospital. Priorities. We all have 'em, and stack 'em accordingly.

Long thread, eh.....would you believe I built an entire Hot Wheel track at the same time, watched The Incredibles, and now must decide between The Fast and the Furious, or 2 Fast 2 Furious ?.......Daddy Dave time....

[Terri]

You're doing the best you can with what you've got to work with... and as with anything Family time comes first :grin:

[Jackie Ramo]

Dave, the warmer water of the upper pond will not hurt the fish. Not enough of a temp difference and they warm up better than down so if you catch them put them in the upper pond. Provided there is enough water to cover them of course :grin:

[Busy B]

My goodness Dave...talk about trials and tribulations and thru it all, you still have a sense of humor! I have to hand it to you...I'd be off in a corner somewhere crying :grin: And on top of it, you sound like a wonderful Dad!

I've been running a hose from my kitchen sink so know what your talking about on making a mess. I found an attachement at the aquarium shop and if you take the washer out, it actually works! I just hang a towel over the spigot.

[Dave in Innisfil]

Completely drained and scrubbed the upper pond (Santa, change the order for a new carb to a new powerwasher). Seized up my medium sub pump, which I now add to my list of pond casualties. Wonder if it was all the leaches and dragonfly larvae ? By inserting a piece of styrophom under the liner, I managed to stretch one side enough to make one spillway waterfall of the two working. Will have to do for now. Salted and aeriated overnight, hopefully for fish transfer today. One sick fish transfered to the QT (is this how you hobbets/hobbiest refer to an aquarium ?). It's swimming sideways, but looks fine. Four more of his friends didn't make the cut, but three of them had passed a while ago. Found the remains of our bullfrog and crayfish. They won't be missed. Hope all that pond excement is good for the lawn. We haven't had any snow or rain in over a week now, good for working weather, but lousy on the lawn fertilizer and grass futures. I attempted a mechanical filter using various screening, graduated buckets with holes, all remnants from the previous owner, but the mess and smell makes me add a larger wet/dry vac to my Xmas list as well.

It's sunny and going to be in the mid-teens today, so with Tina's help, I'll try and get that well pump installed finally. Some technical difficulties with hose connections and the clock showing midnight ended my day yesterday. I hope all this effort is worth the two dozen fish I've got left.

[Jackie Ramo]

Sounds like you have been working hard. Saving living things is always worth while and a good lesson for your son. I'm sure he enjoys the mess :grin: In addition, you'll have the greenest lawn in the neighbourhood. Don't forget to water the flower beds as well.

[Dave in Innisfil]

Hell of a day in Innisfil. Got the chems and meds, prepped the top pond, caught 78 fish in sizes ranging from 2 inch thru 17 inch (Roy the Koi). That deep centre I couldn't see, well, let's say it was pretty sad. We said good-bye to 18 fish today, mostly in recent states of departure, in all sizes and colours. The fairly healthy ones went straight to the top pond, the sick went to the medicated aquarium. By nightfall, we lost another 3 in the tank. The others were now much more active, and I transfered them too to the top pond.

With the water gone, we found quite a few planters in variety of states, but they're going to have to wait until I GET THAT DAMN WELL PUMP FIXED so I can add fresh water.

Still lots of clean up in the main pond to do, but hard without fresh water. Found/caused a small leak/tear on bottom of pond that I'll need to fix too. All the plants were perched on concrete bricks, so there was quite a bit of brick rubble on the various levels too. I know there's a pump down there because I can follow the cord, but there's a huge pot with rushes on top of it I ain't about to move.

We took lots of pics today, but I ain't into editing. More wanna thank you all for the encouragement and advice.
Cheers and thanks so far

[Jackie Ramo]

Well thankfully it was a lovely day and not raining on you :lol: That's the sort of thing that happens to me. :roll:

78 fish is one heck of a lot of fish!!! You've got your handfuls for sure. The fresh water will help but with that many fish you need that pump working.... maybe it is raining on you after all *:|

You're doing a great job. Looking forward to seeing th epics. Love to watch others suffer !rofl

[tucker]

I have been reading your saga about your pond, and am so sorry you are having such a problem.
You have come to the right place for help.....Jackie, Terri and others will do everything they can to help you.
Good luck and hope things get straightened out soon.

Karyl

[marla]

Dave, I'm so glad you stopped in the site. Jackie is such a help. Your saga is sooooo much worse then I imagained. Wow so many fish! Still have my fingers crossed for you, sounds like you'll save quite a few, and maybe have to send some to new homes. Sorry this all had to happen to you, your getting quite the learning experience of ponding all in one shot, bad water, leaks, bad pumps, sick fish. I'm not sure I could have handled all that at once, your quite the trooper, and doing a fine job by the way it sounds. Best of luck.

[Dave in Innisfil]

After 4 hours of wrench-to-wrench combat with our well pump, I thru in the towel, pulled out the dryer, ran a hose thru the house, and out to the upper pond. I added as much fresh water as time would allow, considering a 7-hour road trip to return my son to his mum and get back home. I won't sadden you with the fish bucket count this morning. I lost both my largest albino's. Roy the Koi wasn't his usual chipper self, but still alive, spending most of the day cruising the 4 inch shallow shelf just before the waterfall. Proded, he swims back into the depths.

We're noticing a higher fatality rate amongs our motled orange-black-white fish than our ugly brown ones, who have about a 3 to 1 ratio. No consistancy today with sickly or injured fish, many looked in great shape, as we noted in our log book as we transfered each fish, complete with rough measurements and digital pics. Tina was a great hand yesterday, and I really enjoyed the company during some of the worst parts. We underestimated the depth of the pond, the number of layers, the number of plants, and the number of these dark brown fish. We didn't even know we had them, until we got down to the second last pond level. Split tail that resemble those of an airplane. We hope to get to identify the kinds of fish in more quieter moments. Same with our plant inventory. Right now we just want to get that big stinky hole in our back yard filled back in.

Is it bad that ground water leaks INTO a pond ? Considering the hole in the bottom liner, the water still within the lower pond is actually going up slowly, and not from run off from the top pond, which now leaks like a sieve once you get anywhere near the upper limits.

With all the fish in the upper round pond, two-tiered with a 3' bottom and 1' shelf all the way around, I was worried about the fish not having any shade and being in direct sunlight. Should I be shading part of the pond ?

The fish aren't interested in the food I have put sparingly into the pond. It's a new type, much smaller than the pellets I previously fed them. They cruise around the surface quite a bit now, gills opening and closing rapidly, taking in water thru their mouths too it seems. But not eating yet. Usual ?

When I got home, Tina barred me from the pond. She says there are no dead fish for me to worry about tonight..... nothing more I can do even if there are. I'm admitting defeat and calling to get the well fixed. After a weekend with an energetic 5 year old, and two adults working round the clock on ponds and garden, there's a stack of fishy smelling laundry that needs tending. Haven't called for that tandem load of soil quite yet........thought of having to wheelbarrow it a strong deterrant right now.... LOL

[Jackie Ramo]

Dave I feel for you. I"m glad that Tina has pitched in to help. Misery does like compnay :-) I'm also glad she is making you rest. No sense pusing oneself off the deep end. This is a big project.

Are the fish getting any air or water circulation now? Have you added any ammonia binder to the upper pond? As the pond warms up the parasites and bacteria are going to multiply pretty quickly, faster than the koi will recover. I wish I could say the sailing will be all smooth. Oh, and Did you salt the pond?

I'd not worry about shading the upper pond. The sun isn't strong enough to burn the fish and it will warm them up which is good.

[Jackie Ramo]

Also I was at our Koi club meeting and speaking to a member from the Lindsay area and one of their many pond problems is ground water coming up under the liner... We thought it may be caused with the snow melt and the ground not being melted but neither of us know anything about ground water :lol:

[marla]

and the saga continues... I read with hope and anticipation everyday. I wonder if all your brown fish, if small, aren't goldfish, I think I've read they may be a bit hardier then koi, however being a newbie I could be wrong. Tina is right get some rest, there is always tomorrow as my husband says and more fish at the store, and lots of ponding years left. Try not to get to defeated, it will be beautiful after all your efforts, and things will be put right.

[Dave in Innisfil]

Sunrise found only two floaters, neither coloured. Nothing like Mitchell Lake near Lindsay, which had an unknown winter kill off of thousands of game fish, and muskrats too. One my dead fish had it's mouth full of debris, whatever that means, some live fish swimming with their heads down, some kinda sideways floating, but move when proded. I haven't figured out which are koi and which are goldfish yet, I just call the ones with tusks koi.

Yes, I did add salt as recommended to the upper pond. Also Desafin, AmoniaOut, Detox and about 25% fresh water from our tap. There's white foam on top of the pond, which disapates shortly after I turn off the air pump. I also have a smaller fountain pump creating a mild current around the upper shelf. I still haven't seen any fish eating, and they have the option of both kinds of food. . The water is in the mid-50's right now, and I'll check my chem levels later today. The plumber/well technician didn't sound too optomistic on the phone, so I'm not putting the dryer back until the verdict is in, so I can add more fresh water to them at will. Glad we have two clotheslines, but with my luck it'll rain.

Our water table is about 2 feet below ground level, so with us now knowing the centre of the pond is at least 5 feet deep, we can expect the water level to rise at least a couple of feet. I'm using this to water our now parched lawns and flower beds, hoping the saline content isn't too high from the run off from the upper pond. I imagine that I'll patch whatever holes I can find, and try not to cause any more. The waterfall liner is pooched, with multiple big tears and rips. The liner is caked in green algae, and I'm using a large fountain pump to try and wash some of it down. Santa, don't cheap out on the power washer.....1800 psi at least....my elbows are already sore from scrubbing the visable parts of the liner.

Tina dug up some pics from last summer to remind me how much pleasure we got from the pond, and how nice it looked after we cleaned it up. I'd be embarrassed to have company over right now.........but at least I'd have some fish to show them !

[Dave in Innisfil]

I''d like to post a couple of pics, but am having no luck. Any pointers ? Or you can e-mail me at RTDAVE@AOL.com and I can send them to you that way.

[Terri]

Dave you have my email, more than happy to post them for you if you send them to me.

[marla]

You have pictures on Photobucket, all you have to do is left click the bottom of the three image tags under the picture([IMG]http://imagephotobucket) hit copy and then paste it to your message.

[Terri]

Dave's pics
http://backyardpuddle.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10001/First%20pond%20picture_resize.jpg
Pond this spring
http://backyardpuddle.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10001/Lower%20fish%20pond_resize.jpg
Lower pond now
http://backyardpuddle.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10001/Roy%20in%20Bucket.jpg
One of Dave's koi

Good idea Marla, photobucket is easy to use for those who haven't figured out posting/linking pics. And there's our gallery here as well.

[Terri]

Dave, there is no need to try and feed right now, other things need to be taken care of. 50F is cold still, your fish aren't interested because they are not "well" and their metabolisms are very low right now.

[Dave in Innisfil]

Thanks Terri and Marla...

Photobucket is Tina's domain. God forbid I screw it up....which I'm most capable of. I e-mailed Terri a few pics. One of my Roy the Koi big guy/gal (whatever it is), one of my pond with two more lower levels to go, and one of the state we got the pond/property in last May and what we've had to work with. The interesting thing is I'm now making heads and tails of some of the junk the previous owners left behind. Some gold in that there garbage, as far as pump fittings, pumps, hoses, filters, nets etc. Maybe I should have kept some of those empty med and chem containers to know what he was using. Shame they didn't leave the filter behind, just the pipe leading to where it used to be located in the upper pond. Bbut at least the pond pump in the deepest part of the pond was left behind (200lb planter with rushes on top of it probably had something to do with it). I wondered what the salt and peat pellets were for. We found a large assortment of those black plastic planters with the mesh sides, but don't know if we should use them considering the state of the other plants that are already in them, roots protruding and all. I rummaged thru more of the discards today......nope, judging from the caked on dirt on the liner, he didn't have a power washer either...LOL

[Jackie Ramo]

Dave, don't want to rain on your parade here but salt and desafin do not work well together. One or the other, not both.

[Dave in Innisfil]

Thanks for posting my pics. Can anyone identify my mystery fish type ? The blue shed pic was our move in date, the pile of stuff beside it miscellaneous garbage and pond equipment. The other pic was the start of our ice out, and the shocking sight of orange/black/white bodies.
Tina reminded me tonight how nice the pond looked last fall, and I really should post a pic of what we turned that mess into.

I specifically asked the local pond shop if salted water was a problem with any of the products he piled up on the counter, and he said no problem. Later that night, the fish seemed to be getting worse in the quarantine tank with the salt and Desafin, and that's when I opted to rejoin the still living with their friends in the upper pond who seemed to be doing much better there. Some of the fish that expired in the tank were in bad shape to begin with, but that probably explains why some that were much livelier died too.

Regardless of whether or not I can get the well pump fixed, they'll get another 25% water change tomorrow. I can't win with pumps. My small circulation pump cord shorted in my wet hands tonight from a cheap replacement plug (add another job to the jar), and my mid-size fountain pump keeps tripping the internal thermocoupler. Santa, add "Pumps for Dummies" to my wish list. Oh yeah, and a map to exactly where in my yard I have to dig to find my well head, so I can now replace the stuck foot valve.

OK, I'll stop feeding them, but it was only a sparse scattering 'cause I felt so bad for them. The upper pond reached 56 degrees today, nicer to the touch than the cesspool below. I keep pulling up live crayfish from the mucky mess, but at least I haven't had to de-leech my hands and feet like last year. I'm so scared to tear the liner I resort to bare feet in the lower pond. Yeah, I know.....Santa, add long rubber gloves and a wader repair kit.

[Dave in Innisfil]

[IMG]http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v236/Tina12345/Cantwatit.jpg

[IMG]http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v236/Tina12345/cantwait2.jpg

[Jackie Ramo]

Dave, here's the dead so folks can see what the odd guy looks like.

[Dave in Innisfil]

Ya know, guys.....once in a while the God's do smile down on us unfortunate. The well technician was well worth the cash to come and set the pump up. I'm a pretty handy kinda guy, but plumbing ain't my forte. As I type, my fin-kids are getting clean well water, which is a good thing because the upper pond was looking kinda dingy and dirty. No floaters this morning, sorry to disappoint the racoons who have begun hanging around the pond at night. The fish ain't out of the woods yet, as many still have ulcers and jagged fins, but at least they'll have clean water, and be back in their real pond in short order. This ordeal has strengthened my arguement for an in-side laundry tub, so Tina's going out tonight to buy a stackable washer/dryer so I can have my tub. Compromise, the secret to great relationships, I get a tub and she gets new appliances. And my fish get fresh water. Yipee for all.

[Terri]

Well, that's terrific Dave. Treating ill koi is much easier with access to good clean water.

Your koi that I posted for you.. It's in the HIKARI MOYO-MONO class, these are koi that are metallic with two or more colours that do not fit into other classifications. Your's is doitsu, meaning partially scaled or mirror scaled. What this colour combination would be termed as, haven't a clue.

We used to have one similar
http://www.backyardpuddle.com/images/koipix/12-22-2003_70med.jpg

[Jackie Ramo]

Well good news!!! I'm sure Tina will really appreciate the new appliances. I wonder if I could work that..... naw, I have the laundry tub in the greenhouse so all fishy water needs are met sumer and winter.

[Dave in Innisfil]

Big smile on my face this morning. Now if I can only do something about the neighbor's poplar tree dropping all it's blossoms into the top pond. Luckily they float, and a simple topping off of the pond floats them to the debris trap I set up below the waterfall.

Thanks for ID'ing my pal, Roy. We don't see much of him in the main pond, except at feeding time. We figure he and his darker friends have been hiding in the deep centre we didn't know about. He's the reason I didn't throw in the towel and order the load of fill...... We lost track of our fish inventory of exactly who's still swimmin' thanks to the raccoons raiding the dead fish bucket.We'll be able to make adjustments when we return them to the lower main pond, but I figure we still have 60 fish left. Most of our coloured orange/black/white fish (koi I think) are gone now, leaving mostly those dark brown/gold fish. Tina and I will discuss fish replacement after I once again become a contributing member to our financial situation. Still lots of fish with light grey splotches, ragged fins, wierd swimming and floating. We're not outta the woods yet, but at least they're getting regular top ups to remove the floating debris.

The laundry tub arguement was actually won back in January when I brought home 40 perch to clean in "her" kitchen. Subsequent catches were designated as needing to be done in the pond barn with hydro but no water, on the understanding that this was a "this-season-only" compromise. I've been using our bathtub too (no, she wouldn't let me put the sickies there) for rough clean ups, and my popularity with her some evenings has been marginal. Guys and gals have different versions of "acceptably clean".....LOL...Lately my "ring around the bathtub" has been a dirt mixture that defies Comet and elbow grease. That's my story and I'm stickin' to it.

Rain and a cold front moving in today. The pond was 66 degrees yesterday, with the fish skimming the water surface, some actually looking like they were playing. Terri/Jackie, I'm relying on you to tell me when I can start feeding them.....Tina stopped me last night.....she's on your side. Me ? I thinks food is a cure-all, and I'd like

[Jackie Ramo]

Well, since the water problem is now solved and we have a good source - you did test the well water right? - then I'd give them a bit of food. Mostly so you can get a good look at them for more problems. Just a couple of pellets each. Soak them iin orange juice for a vitamin c hit. Terri may recommend some medicated food???? a couple of orange slices wouldn't hurt. It may take them a bit to discover its food the the rinds make it float so its easy to clean out. No thanksgiving dinner though just a light snack.

Remember to keep the salt level up as you are adding water.

[Dave in Innisfil]

Sorry, Jackie, but after I ran the hose for a while from the well until I figured I'd cleaned out the chlorinated water I used to prime the pump, I put the hose into the upper pond without checking it first. The fish seemed to thrive on it last year, and seem more active the past 24 hours since I added the well water, and much fewer casualties. I figure I still have Desafin in the upper pond, so I thought I'd wait 2 more 25% water changes before I start salting again. After this rainfall quits (no, I'm not working in the rain), I'll start pumping out more of the debris from the lower pond. I'll need to drain it completely to patch the holes on the second deepest shelf, and I want to start up the bottom pump to test it before I completely re-fill and replace the plants.

Speaking of plants, do the lillies need to be right on the bottom, or can I lift them off the bottom with milk crates so they're about 2 feet below the high water mark ? The previous owner had most on bricks, which can't be good for the liner. I'm thinking about making the top pond mostly rushes on the outer shelf with floating plants in the middle. With the bottom pond, I thought mostly lillies with rushes in the 4 corners. Floating plants I keep in the top pond 'cause the fish seemed to eat their roots before they got big. Right now all the plants are being watered manually daily with pond water, and the tops of the rushes are burning and curling. I'm not going to have the time to do much with most of the plants, just fix the one's that have outgrown their planters or contain dead plants. Plant Dividing 101 is going to have to take a back seat to re-design laundry room.

Are crayfish good or bad for the pond ? I have the opportunity now to remove them if recommended.

I did have a fatality last night after all. I just e-mailed a pic to Terri for her opinion. Bulging red veins, no sores, no fin-rot. It was a sinker, not a floater.

[Terri]

Dave you have email.

Crayfish are fine.. little clean up crew, the bigger fish will eat them.

You can raise the lilies, milk crates are a good way to do so.

If you and Tina are not emontionally attached to the left goldfish... going to sound like a meanie here ;-) , then get rid of them. Less to take care of and you can concentrate on those you wish to keep. Along with that, 60 fish is too much for your system.

[Terri]

won't hurt.... medicated foods are best used in conjunction with other treatments for fish that are in QT where you can monitor their food intake.

For now, like Jackie suggested, get some really good food into them... peas, oranges, a few earthworms, and soaked pellets in OJ. It's best to feed lightly, toss in a little, if that gets eaten in a few minutes then toss in a bit more - remove what is not eaten.

While they need food you do not have a functioning bio-filter atm, so go easy and keep testing your water.

Speaking of, got any new test results you can post? The whole range for the upper pond and to repeat Jackie's ? how bout those well water readings too?

[Jackie Ramo]

Well its not too late the check the water anyway. One should have an idea of what is being added to the pond. In some cases the water from the well is worse than the pond water, not in your case but it is a good practise.

In one of your pics I thought I saw a big long low black container. Put the water plants in that and they will self water.

Yes, milk crates can be used but sure to check for rough edges that the fish may scrape on. sounds like you are devloping a plan for the look you want.

As for crayfish, my fish thought they were food and ate them so I can't say one way or the other. I'd be tempted to put them in the upper pond.


What are you planning to do about so many fish.. You still have too many for the size of the pond.

[Jackie Ramo]

Terri, have you been practising typing?? you're getting fast!!!!

[Terri]

:grin:

[Dave in Innisfil]

Women are so observant at times.....yes, I have a master plan for the upper and lower ponds, plant and fish-wise.....LOL. I'll move the crayfish to the upper with 2 catfish I was planning on adding to keep stirring up the muck at the bottom. Unless of course someone screams "No, don't" again.

I was thinking about splitting up the fish into the two ponds, goldfish-types in the upper, and koi with a few larger goldfish in the main lower. Any survivors from the upper I'll transfer to the lower come fall clean up, and this year I'll monitor the water under the ice. I think the upper pond will be too easy prey to our mink, heron, and racoons for the colourful fish. After what I've been reading, there's more dead fish to come so I might as well wait and see what if any I have left. I've heard the word "wiped out".......and hope that isn't in my future.

Current readings in the top pond

NH3.....ammonia....about 1.8
PH 8
Nitrate 0
Nitrite 0
Salt .14
GH 120
KH 100

OK, I'll brace myself......the verdict ???????? Recommendations ?

[Terri]

Ammonia is still high. Are you using a binder? What have you set up for filtering? (bio and mech) Now that the well is available I would suggest upping the water changes to 10% a day. No feeding... sorry Dave (where's Tina? ;-) ) Feeding will only add to the ammonia level.

Another note, Meds/Chems like Desafin will not work properly in a "dirty" pond, and also they shouldn't be added with high ammonia levels. This comes after the fact I know...

Understand this... :grin: No muck! Any muck is BAD muck. Muck BAD! Keep the pond bottoms CLEAN! (hard to do with plants but still do-able)

Catfish will eat the crayfish too. They will eat ANYTHING that fits into their mouths. They also grow very fast when they can fit whatever into their mouth.

If your calculations on total gallons is near true you're looking at 20 fish tops(total) for a "healthy" pond system, with a filter set-up that will keep up. That would be 40 fish you need to "cull".

All I can think of anything else for now...

[Terri]

oH, that 0.14% salt, are you adding salt? Or is this what's coming out of the well combined with tap water?

[Dave in Innisfil]

Yes, I just added 10 cups of salt, and another freshening of water. The problem is the water from the well is so cold that it's lowered the temp to the mid-50's from yesterday's mid-60's. After a top-up, the fish become very inactive, but hang around the area where I add the fresh water. I'm guessing that the ammonia-out and desafin should be almost flushed out by now, so I'll work on my salt level and leave the Desafin on the shelf.

As far as the quantity of fish, I'm not killin' any until I see what I've got left.
Fish cost money, and I'm runnin' low on both

[Jackie Ramo]

I'm with Terri on this. Bind the amonia with a binder, that means you don't have to change out as much water and can keep the temps up a bit. Mind we will hit a freeze tonight... just brought all the plants back in.. With the lowered temps the fish will have no interest in food so don't bother. Terri and I can arm wrestle later about how much ammonia food creates :frisbee:

Try to keep the salt at 0.3%, anything is better than nothing but 0.3% slows the parasites and helps the wounds heal.

You do need to look at filtration, not sure if the pond actually had anything except the plants.... Have a look at Ian's posts about filters and also others have all posted do it yourself filters. Tina will thank us for keeping the costs down :grin:

[Dave in Innisfil]

No floaters or sinkers to the casual eye today. Got the washer and dryer installed, trying to bring order to many things that came to a standstill with the pondmare. We had frost last night, so it's probably best I get the plants submerged asap.

Many fish not looking so good, physically. Lots of greying on the dark goldies, and fin-rot. All the fish are basking in the shallow shelf and spill off. I'll try not to disturb them too much today. They're shying away from me now.

Stopped off at Botanix Garden Centre in Barrie last night. Their pond expert never heard of an ammonia binder. Their solution to all is fresh water, and salt occassionally. Hopefully will be able to escape and grab some somewhere. I'll try and up the salt percentage today, after another couple of small water changes today.

[Jackie Ramo]

The are normally called dechlorinators rather than ammonia binders. They do both. Prime, Amquel, Laguna, Tetra all make dechlorinators that bind amonia... sorry should have given you some names to ask for. Petsmart carries the Laguna products or did last year. They aren't the best on the market IMO but will certainly do the job you need done.

[Dave in Innisfil]

Today I saw the absolute bottom of the pond. It filled half a plastic drum with debris, and uncovered more fatalities. I filled and flushed repeatedly, until it remained clear.

The fish relaxed mostly in the shallows today. I topped up the pond for them to remove the constant surface debris from the neighbor's poplar tree blossoms. Lots cruising the surface, and breaking the surface.

Ran out of daylight, and too damn tired to drive to Walmart now, but thanks for the tip. I've a job interview in town (Barrie) tomorrow, so I can make the effort to get some dechlorinator. I thought I already added that when I added the tap water, but by now it's probably flushed through.

Hadda laugh at all that foam on the surface of their pond. Ya mean they're up there having an orgie, and I'm sweatin' my unmentionables off shovellin' their leavin's ?... LOL... Wonder if a Google search will give me a recipe for koi ?

I'll be starting up another thread on the problem I discovered at the bottom of the pond. Just how big a leak is acceptable ?

[Jackie Ramo]

A google search will show up a couple of recipes for koi :frisbee:

Glad to hear you got to the bottom of things :grin: sorry it turned up a few more surprises for you.

Good luck on the job interview tomorrow.

[Dave in Innisfil]

OK, so the Pond God thought I had too many fish, and too much time on my hands too I guess.

We had a frost again last night, so the fish are still inactive this morning. Much less of that white foam floating on top this morning. Guess most of the action 'round here was in our bed instead of the pond for a change (Tina was SO SO very happy about the new washer and dryer.......LOL), even after it flooded her laundry room with a hole in her new discharge hose (I can't get away from leaks no matter how I try.....tires, pumps, hoses, my fingers....)

Early-to-rise me interupted a racoon making a meal of one of my koi at pond edge. Not wanting to add a vet bill to my growning list of debtors, I refrained from introducing it to my German Shepherds. Previously 'coons raided the dead fish bucket I forgot to compost, now they're preying on the fish directly. We are enough "in-town" that terminal predjudice by lead is a no-no, and my neighbors already told me that a Havahart live-release trap around here would need almost daily emptying. Seems Toronto's wildlife control like to transport the masked bandits up here, because it's far enough away that they don't have to worry about them returning.

Because we let the dogs out at all hours of day and night, a motion-sensitive buzzer or water-jet would need to be turned on and off too frequently. Mothballs deter skunks, but not coons. Any idea's ? The bottom pond isn't ready yet, and I think keeping them topside in the salt bath for a while longer might clean them up a bit. To rapid transport to the safer bottom pond or suffer additional fatalities while the survivors get a few more days in their QT ?

[Jackie Ramo]

Dave now that the racoons have found a food source they will be much harder to get rid of. I'd have the hose by the door set on a hard jet and spray them when you see them. On the upside, I doubt the racoon caught a healthy fish, probably snagged a floater and an almost floater. They are not good fishers, but they have a bad reputation, mostly because of all those shallow preform ponds that are in fact racoon feeders. Racoons can swim but don't like to do so. Be sure to dispose of any additional dead fish immediately so no food is found anymore. Being a city girl next to the ravine system racoons are a part of life here. Training the ones you have is better than removing them. We manage to live quite peacefully with the mom and 5 babies that live across the street. The average number of raccons in the city is 9 per city block!!!! or so the news said last year...

You were right not to release the dogs when the racoon had food, they will defend that, but will move on if they don't have food. My toy poodle drives them off on a regular basis. Mind the racoons are trained that we are right behind the 8 lb dog, but it sure makes Skipper feel important :grin: They don't bother the pond or fish or even raid the compost.

Take the time to fix the bottom pond properly. The upper pond is easier to medicate and you have your water changes problem fixed now.

[Jackie Ramo]

BTW a super soaker does a good job of driving them off and is actually fun to use. Keep it filled and primed by the door.

[Terri]

Another thought about the masked bandits... Get some pond netting(bird netting) and tightly cover the upper pond. Your upper pond shape and design is ideal for this being that it's got a flat surface and it's round. You have to make sure you've secured the netting weel or the coons will just undo what you did and have a feast.

If you've noticed that the coons are dining at on particular spot... this is fun to watch actually ;-) , see if you can find one of those door mats they have out at halloween, the ones that scream when you step on them. Works for herons too LOL

There's also a few products you can buy for repelling coons, not sure how well they work but worth a shot. These products should be used around the perimeter of your property.

[Wulff]

Glad to see your making good progress.

On raccoons.
Similiar to Terri's noise maker door mats. You can try old fashioned spring loaded mousetraps. Theres two ways to hoop them up. One is by connecting two traps with a length of fishing line. Set the spring then carefully lay them out. Another is by covering traps with towels. Any pressue on either the line or towel will trip the springs and make them think twice about approaching in the future.

/edit
Lol for that matter the newer "friendlier/humane" plastic traps baited and left out may work to :) I imagine no raccoon would appreciate having their nose tweaked :grin:

[Dave in Innisfil]

My tarp idea has somewhat thwarted the local racoons. They have left the pond undisturbed the past two nights. I left the upper pond salted, de-toxified the ammonia, and tarp covered, as my immediate problem now is a bad leak in the liner. One racoon ventured on to our porch, and it was "escorted" under it by Ben, my largest Shepherd. Lia, my 8th month old female pup herself hides from Ben under the porch, so she didn't get to join the chase.

Oh, for the record, Tina and I are participating members in the Toronto German Shepherd Rescue. Both our pups are rescues. Ben was a fully trained 4 year old who's only fault was that he was trained in Arabic, not English. Tina found Lia in Memphis, Tenn animal shelter after the bad storms/hurricanes last fall. Because the SPCA had so many animals, they reduced the adoption time to one week before euthanasia. A quick plane trip to Toronto and now she is in her forever home. We place good dogs throughout Canada and the US, so if anyone is ever looking for a German Shepherd, we have quite a few waiting in foster homes. Each dog is tested and approved by one of our members before they are placed in their new "forever home". We don't place dogs who are biters, aggressive, destined to be kept outside, or used for guard dog purposes.

It's still raining pretty frequently here, so pond repairs today will be limited to draining. Another day or two of quiet around the upper pond/QT should help to de-stressify our remaining fish. I can see one small "floater" at the open end of the pond. As of Friday, we estimate that we have only 10 koi left, and maybe 30 goldfish, down from the hundred fish we estimated last fall, and the 76 we managed to transplant to the QT. The only consolation is that wherever I've gone (garden supply and pond specialists), ours isn't the only pond with problems. Mine just seems to be the worst.....LOL Gee, that's how I felt about my first marriage too.

[Jackie Ramo]

I will let my daughter know about the GSD rescue. She often runs into folks at dog parks who are looking for a new dog. Both my toy poodles are rescues. When Amber goes we will get another rescue but sorry not a GSD. My big dog days are over.

Sounds like the fish are starting to stablize now. A bit of peace and quiet will be good for them. What are the water parameters now? Are any of the sores ratting fins etc getting Worse?

[marla]

We got our shepard as a rescue. She was a puppy (white), when we got her wonderful dog but a bit stubburn sometimes, then you have to work to show her whos boss, while she just looks at you like she is. Did daycare and the kids could climb all over her, they loved to stroke the tips of her ears (so soft), if she had enough she'd just get up and leave. She is now 14, and her days of being with us are growing shorter.

[Jackie Ramo]

I hear you Marla, Amber is 16 and was at the vets again on Friday... I'm hoping she'll last the summer.

[Dave in Innisfil]

After the upper pond reaching 66 degrees a week ago, it's back down to 48, so everyone's kinda commatose. I hope they like their new home, because the main pond isn't going to be ready as soon as I thought. The small leaks I had before have now been joined by several larger, and difficult to fix leaks. Tina and I are discussing our options right now, but both agree if we need a new liner for the bottom pond, we might demote ourselves to being a one 2,000 gallon pond family. I'm sure the pups would enjoy the extra running room. I'll be discussing our situation more in the thread where I beg for help and assistance.....LOL

[Wulff]

I'm a big beleiver in rescue organisations as the route togo when looking to get a dog (or cat). After years of telling the kids "no, we can't get a dog yet" we finally decided last summer we could. After months of researching (years really) Id narrowed it down to two breeds and in November we got our retired racing greyhound. He was a wonderfull dog, unfortunately he developed or had (from the track ) issues with fear aggression and we had to return him after a few months, it wasnt fair to him or our kids...Im happy to report he is getting along wonderfully in a home with two other Greys which may have been part of the probem (lack of greys at our house).

But that left us w/o a dog and my search commenced once again in early February. Just this Saturday we completed our trial run with our new puppy and formalised it yesterday. Shes a terrier mix with what looks to be a good dose of whippet. She was found tied to a tree and abandoned at about 7 or 8 weeks of age in the middle of February :(


Not sure if Im allowed to link this or if it will even work but I dont see any harm. Its the link to the organisation we went through ( very good imo) and "Pepper" our new bundle of energy.

http://www.animalguardian.org/launch-adoption.htm

Rescue organisations are a ton of work and good on you Dave for doing your part :)

[Dave in Innisfil]

Once in a while, I get lucky. On a personal note, I will soon be joining the ranks of the employed, and damn if they didn't agree to my additional terms of hiring regarding my access to my son. Yipee, since this has been a problem area for me telling prospective employers about the time off I need.

The second piece of luck was a chance meeting with a pond builder just down the road from me. He proved to be a wealth of information about "MY" pond, having been involved in it's design, repair and maintenance. Unfortunately, he wasn't contracted to do the building/construction, and the homeowner didn't follow experienced local advice to save money. I got lLots of recommendations on how it should have been done, on what we should do (downsize the depth), and best of all he's sending a pond technician later this week to estimate both the cost of repairing the liner or replacing it. He's not got quite the same sentiment for your type of liner as a replacement, prefering a heavier PVC type because of it's repairability over the EPDM. He's a bit mystified at why a liner only 8 years old is cracking, but suspects the pond previously may have been empty for long periods of time (this pond has a history of "big" problems) exposing it to damaging UV rays. He didn't supply the liner, so he's not even sure if it's a genuine pond liner or just a large sheet of black plastic.

So until then, I'm in limbo with my fin-kids. Today they get another 25% water change. I hope that this will be the second day in a row with no "floaters".

Wulff......I know the greyhound rescue organization, and they've done great things in placing ex-racing dogs. But we too have our not-so-successful placements of dogs, and it always brings great sadness to us handlers when a placement doesn't become a "forever home". Fortunately, we have way more successes than failures. I wouldn't trade either of my rescue pups for the highest pedigree'd dog in the world. They're my "fur-kids"...LOL.

[Dave in Innisfil]

After an extensive road trip on Saturday, including visiting Terri and Ian (thanks again), we had some fresh idea's about what to do with our pondmare, and how to potentially avoid similar problems in the future with some modifications now during the rebuild.

The fish didn't fare well under the tarp for two days. While death due to predation seemed licked, the fish went downhill quickly. Most looked like ghosts, and even Roy the Koi was the worse for the ordeal. I had been warned the long term effects of the ammonia alone might mean a total loss, and that's where we're headed it seems. Between the bad water, mink, coons, and herons, I've become insensitive now to their passing.

The top QT pond was lowered, and remaining fish were transfered back to the 55 gallon outside aquarium. I'll start Desafin treatment today, more out of sympathy than expectation of survival. The shock of transfer was too much for some of the worse fish, but the survivors this morning seem to be less lethargic, and much of the white stuff that adorned their bodies has come off. Roy was an overnight survivor..........Hang in there, dude.........I'm workin' on it....

Is talking to your fish the second qualification for being a true ponder after admitting to falling in ???????

[Jackie Ramo]

Yes, falling in, talking to your fish and naming them means you are now officially bitten with the pond bug. Next comes waking in the middle of the night and wondering if they are ok. :smile:

[Cinnamon]

Dave, Jackie is right! It is official. You are now an avid ponder :lol: I talk to my fish and even call them to eat. They come running! All my family and friends look at me like I have lost it most of the time! !rofl My FAL especially. He says, "Now Pam, you know if people heard you they would commit you!" I haven't had the fall in the pond yet but my husband Rembrandt took care of that for me!

Good luck with it all.

Pam

[Terri]

Oh Dave, you got it BAD! !rofl

It was a pleasure meeting you and Tina.. and the fur-kids! Wish I had had a bit more time to chat with you both, glad you enjoyed your visit and chat with Ian :-) Look forward to seeing you again soon!

[Dave in Innisfil]

As a lifelong angler, I've killed thousands of fish, mostly for the table. As a child, I bred tropical fish until an outbreak of ich wiped out 8 tanks of various sizes. I've helped build large trout and bass ponds. I will not be beat by this little 5000 gallon hole in my yard!!!

Yes, before I retire for the night, I check my fin-kids.....pellet gun in hand for them pesky racoons. They've gotten smart, and now don't even raid the garbage can. The heron comes before 6 am, and can't get to the QT, and we haven't seen the mink in over a week. Even the local ravens know to leave my pond the "flack" alone (they'd been swooping down on my floaters).

But I still get that sinking feeling in my stomach each morning as I open the back door. Three more "floaters" this morning, and I had to double check Roy who was still sleeping. We've had snow and hail the past couple of days, so my QT has been varying greatly in temperatures between day and night. They're living in fresh, filtered, aeriated, medicated and guarded quarters, and they're still dying. Very frustrating to be budgetting for this rebuild with my living interest in the pond dwindling daily. Yes, fish are replaceable (Tina willing), but I can't help but do everything within limits for my "survivors".

Local pond expert promised today to drop by and give his two cents worth of advice, along with a written estimate on what he's going to charge us to take over when I go back to work next week.

Anyone know in advance the winning numbers in this Friday's Super 7 Jackpot ?

[Dave in Innisfil]

The local pond expert sent one of his technicians to survey our ponds today. I was shocked to learn our bottom pond is really about 10,000 gallons, and could even be more. Yup, he said the liner is nearing the end of the life expectancy, and no repairs he could make would end the possibility of further rips and tears upon refilling, which he said was probably the cause. Nope, don't fill the deep end in, as you never know when a cold winter will leave a 3 foot thick ice surface. Nope, with so many coons, mink and herons, don't even consider investing in expensive koi unless you intend to restock on a regular basis or buy only large fish you won't get sentamentally attached to and be prepared to bring all our fish indoors every winter. Nope, remove the old liner (I disagree). Nope, go PVC, cheaper to buy and fix (I disagree). Nope, all my efforts to save the remaining 10 fish are probably in vain, and if I'm lucky and diligent, Roy may survive. Total losses are a regular thing around here, get used to it. His deferred suggestions regarding water filtration and movement to his boss, but said an adequate filtration system would be about $1,000 plus installation and plumbing.

Pondering my pondmare now.....can't wait for the total estimate....LOL

[Terri]

LMAO .. I guess everyone's gotta make a buck. This "expert" worries me... wouldn't mind having a word with him.

Maybe you should throw a pond liner install party.. :grin: Jackie would come just to see your lilies LOL and I'm sure I could twist a few arms - only catch, you'd have to join our koi club! ;-)

[Dave in Innisfil]

Terri, Tina as always was one step ahead of me, and is drafting volunteers to help with the pond liner installation the long weekend of May. Experienced volunteers are in short supply, so I imagine it will turn into a two day lesson in frustration. Free beer and burgs usually brings a crowd round here. I'll first have to make a trip to Eugene's between now and then. The "expert" said it can best be done on a warm day, something we haven't seen since March.....LOL. Yesterday we had snow, hail and freezing rain. I tried ordering sand, and the garden centre said their sand pile is stil frozen and mud-locked in their yard. With my son coming for the next three days, and me returning to gainful employment next week, pond work and liner prep will come to a standstill. Good thing, since my back has moved several tons of flagstone the past few days as I have re-topped the upper pond, and removed most of the stones anchoring the existing liner.

The remaining fish in my QT are noticeably better. I've been adding Melafix, with 25% daily changes of fresh, warm water. The QT sprung a leak (figures), and I'll hopefully be able to pick up some aquarium silicone to seal it today. The fish I couldn't catch in the top pond have gone to a better life.

Membership in the Koi Club is coming..........just hope I won't have to prove I've got any koi left to join. I'm overjoyed that the koi club would consider a mass murderer like me for membership........LOL