Help - KOI FASTING?

[Koidaddy]

As most of you know, this is my first winter of having my koi indoors. It's been a real treat feeding them and not having to worry about them freezing their fins off! Now, that being said, I have a question - I've read that some hobbyist fast their koi for 6 weeks so that females can reabsorb their eggs.... Should I be doing this? If so, I've read this should have been done in Dec - Jan. .... too late?

Any advice would be greatly appreciated!


KD and Fish!
:grin:

[philly]

Don't know KD, but Terri should shed some light as her kois are indoors most of the time.

[Terri]

Fasting is not totally necessary for young fish,.. tosai mainly but can apply to sexually immature nisai. For sexually mature koi, especially females, a fasting period is important for over all health. Many females that are kept in an eternal summer can develop health problems, one of which is egg impaction. Koi are considered a 4 season fish, so a 'winter' period where there is a food shortage is a natural thing to experience, at this time they utilize the resources gained during the spring/summer/fall to keep their bodies going until things warm up and more food is available. Ideally that period is not longer than 8 weeks.

The general consensus among koi hobbyists is to give their sexually mature fish a 4 to 6 week fast,.. just so happens for us here in North America that falls in the months of Dec and Jan as we are experiencing winter, or if in Fl to Cal colder temps. Fasting the fish can be difficult if the water temp is still in the 50F(10C) or higher as the fish are still eager to eat - that is where human will power comes in :grin: , ignoring their begging isn't always easy. Lighting plays a part to tricking the fish that there is a seasonal change happening - less available light plus lower temp can equal less active koi.

Sorry, began to ramble,... to answer your question KD, yes you should be doing this to benefit your koi kids over all health, and no it is not to late to begin fasting.

[Koidaddy]

Thanks Terri! ... As usual, you are a life saver! :bow:

I'll start their fast tomorrow morning! I'll also turn off the heat in that particular room and remove some of the lighting. Also, I have last years tosai (yours and mine) in the tank, will they be able to manage the fast considering that at best the lowest temperature I can achieve is around 55 F. ?


Wish me luck so that I remain strong!:crybaby:

KD
xox

[Koidaddy]

... I just unplug some lighting and turned down the heat. As per usual, they all charged over to me looking for a handout....:crybaby::crybaby::crybaby:

I think I need to start drinking again!

[Terri]

Chris,... good start :)

I suggest at this point you just cut back how much and how often you are feeding... slamming the lid on the feed container can be somewhat stressful. Remember, fasting comes on with conditioning - environmental changes (temp, light, etc.), and this in nature happens over several weeks before fasting begins. Your fish are still running with a metabolism geared for 'feeding'.

Your goal: to tapper off the food until the water temp hits the bottom (your 55F), at this point feeding stops. Also, do your best to mimic winter lighting - daylight grows shorter over time... so if you have a timer on the lights in the fish room adjust the on / off time. Try to match the timing of the temp lowering to the lighting... this is a stimulus clue for the fish.

Now, at 55F their metabolism is still kickin' bit slower but going... so during that '4-6 week' period of fasting they should be given a little bit of food - once a week and best to use something like shrimp or krill, just a little bit remember.

Just because the fish are not being fed regularly doesn't mean you can slack off on tank maintenance,... this is still important as, again, their metabolism is still going - they may not be poopin' much but they are still producing 'waste'.

[Jackie Ramo]

I'm not arguing with Terri but I've never fasted Tweet when he is inside. The water temp is between 50-60 and he gets fed lightly all winter. Mind he is not a show fish, nor do I intend to show him but I've never understood why one would fast a fish who is not reported to be a cold water fish. To me this is the hobbyists gone wild. Either they are cold water fish and therefore can survive outside fine or they are not... if they are not then they do not need to be fasted. I keep Tweet cool in winter because I am lazy and cheap not because I think this makes a difference to the fish's health. Keeping him cool means less filter cleaning because less feeding better for me and therefore for him. If I had to clean the filters etc more often it probably would not get done thereby hurting the fish. So this is what works for me and well I guess Tweet since the old grumpy thing is still there and knocking the veggie filter over....

[philly]

... I just unplug some lighting and turned down the heat. As per usual, they all charged over to me looking for a handout....:crybaby::crybaby::crybaby:

I think I need to start drinking again!

It's like having a mini winter in-house KD, I some how figured you wouldn't have to put up with that since you moved them into the basement. :frisbee:

[Koidaddy]

I'm not arguing with Terri but I've never fasted Tweet when he is inside. The water temp is between 50-60 and he gets fed lightly all winter. Mind he is not a show fish, nor do I intend to show him but I've never understood why one would fast a fish who is not reported to be a cold water fish. To me this is the hobbyists gone wild. Either they are cold water fish and therefore can survive outside fine or they are not... if they are not then they do not need to be fasted. I keep Tweet cool in winter because I am lazy and cheap not because I think this makes a difference to the fish's health. Keeping him cool means less filter cleaning because less feeding better for me and therefore for him. If I had to clean the filters etc more often it probably would not get done thereby hurting the fish. So this is what works for me and well I guess Tweet since the old grumpy thing is still there and knocking the veggie filter over....

It's like having a mini winter in-house KD, I some how figured you wouldn't have to put up with that since you moved them into the basement. :frisbee:


Jackie, Phil,

I know ... seems kinda crazy since they are indoors, but the purpose of this is to have my females starve and reabsorb their eggs.... this happens naturally outside during the winter months. I have read that hobbyist who winter indoors run the risk of having impacted females when this is not done.

I will be watching them closely while continuing water maintenance as usual.

KD
:grin:

[philly]

Look on the brighter side you do get the chance to view them every day. :HAHA: :HAHA:

[Koidaddy]

Look on the brighter side you do get the chance to view them every day. :HAHA: :HAHA:

More importantly, they get to view me!
:lol:

[philly]

Yeah! Right. :roll:

[Koidaddy]

Yeah! Right. :roll:

:phfft:

[philly]

Did a water change today as it was quite warm out but could not view the koi under the ice. { OK KD stop snickering now I can see you }

[Jackie Ramo]

I have never had a female reabsorb eggs over winter, if anything that is when they make eggs in prep for the spring spawn.I can see Chiba and Bullet getting fatter each time I see them under the ice. The cold may slow down the egg production so they don't spawn inside but .... Egg impaction happens but it is not that common a thing.

Don't get me wrong. I don't think fasting the fish will hurt them in anyway and certainly helps out the pocket book when you don't have to feed them or heat them.

[tj]

http://backyardpuddle.ca/forum/showthread.php?t=2745

[Koidaddy]

Again, Thanks Terri!

... Need a degree in biology to absorb, but I've highlighted what I see as my question in a "nutshell"

KD
:yup:


JR's "final thoughts"...
Posted by JR on 1/21/2009

"The ultimate truth is, the koi will go off feed naturally at some point on the trend line towards stasis. And if you understand the trend line of physiology, the fish needs no additional 'last meals' to survive a moderate/controlled winter cycle. It is true that 'muted winter' blurs the line between stasis and low level activity ( where calories may be needed). But, again, with perspective and a big picture view, there macro-debates about 1- 5 % differences in mix or if the last meal should be at 50 F or 48 F, are moot.
Ignore the trend lines of physiology and seasons and you will eventually run into problems. Typically disease in spring. The exhausted koi low on reserves, the meal that did pass too slowly, the dumping effect on water quality---- pick your ‘poison’. It’s all a consequence of ignorance or misunderstanding between micro management and the big picture.
Winter is a time to drain stored materials which the koi WILL create on any of the rich diets we feed our fish in the growing season. The very act of maximizing growth and girth is a guarantee that storage is being accomplished and often to excess. There needs to be a period of 'draining the swamp' or that fish will compound the storage system resulting in fatty liver disease, choman ( ovarian diseases) cancers etc. Wild carp remain lean and mean, domestic carp become confused, out of sync metabolic disasters.
It is not the 'fault of carbs' that these things occur. It is the excess feeding of calories and the ignoring of trends and the natural biology of the carp.
A word to the wise ( and those who wish to get 'wise') is sufficient. - JR"

[Jackie Ramo]

Well I read that quite some time ago and can't reread completely now. But JR a wise man and I have not always agreed and I will point out that nothing it the part KD has quoted says the fish needs to be fasteded, I read this as a warning against overfeeding which is another practise I don't follow. Big fat ugly fish don't live long. I should put that on the mirror, it may help with weight loss <LOL>

[Koidaddy]

Well I read that quite some time ago and can't reread completely now. But JR a wise man and I have not always agreed and I will point out that nothing it the part KD has quoted says the fish needs to be fasteded, I read this as a warning against overfeeding which is another practise I don't follow. Big fat ugly fish don't live long. I should put that on the mirror, it may help with weight loss <LOL>


Jackie, I guess it's all a coin toss as theories may come and go - but I do trust Terri's judgment, as we all know she's over the top when it comes to koi!!:grin:

Now, the article... JR talks about winter stasis that occurs naturally in the wild, which we all know involves a fasting of sorts. He and others also point out that this is natural design of koi physiology.... one that has a cleansing effect on koi - I may be putting words in his mouth, but this is how I understood the article. As for myself, I feed my koi several times a day in the summer, so a good cleansing makes sense to me. Have you ever seen the gunk that comes from a human colonic? - YUCK!

KD
:grin:


"There needs to be a period of 'draining the swamp' or that fish will compound the storage system resulting in fatty liver disease, choman ( ovarian diseases) cancers etc. Wild carp remain lean and mean, domestic carp become confused, out of sync metabolic disasters.
It is not the 'fault of carbs' that these things occur. It is the excess feeding of calories and the ignoring of trends and the natural biology of the carp.

[philly]

What's your theory on those that are too busy and don't over feed their koi ? Does that mean they will inherit their wild cousins genes or some of it.

[Koidaddy]

What's your theory on those that are too busy and don't over feed their koi ? Does that mean they will inherit their wild cousins genes or some of it.


Phil,
They already have their wild cousins' genes, that's what allows them to survive 5 months without food during the winter. Your fish are fasting right now, which I think is an overall benefit, so fasting them indoors makes sense to me.

We shall see...

KD
:grin:

[philly]

But KD when they are indoors the temps are higher that mean that their metabolism haven't slowed as much which make them more active so they have to eat to sustain the energy being used up, right.

[Koidaddy]

But KD when they are indoors the temps are higher that mean that their metabolism haven't slowed as much which make them more active so they have to eat to sustain the energy being used up, right.

Phil, You are absolutely right. The temp in my koi room (at best) will be hovering around 55F. I will be feeding them sparingly, every 7-10 days or so, but nonetheless a fast of sorts.... I've rigged my lighting to mimic shorter days... this should help them transition slightly for the fast. Next year I may bore a hole in the side of my house to allow the cold air to come in, like a cold room - I'll wait and see how thier first fast goes.


KD
:grin:

[philly]

If I bore a hole in the side wall of the house for COLD air to get in to simulate winter time for the fishes the MRS would have my neck that's why there are NO KOI in the basement. :HAHA: :HAHA:

[Jackie Ramo]

Well I am not fasting old Tweet, he already knocked the veggie filter over because he wasn't getting enough food. When I read about how much some people feed their koi I am sure they need to be on a diet and fasting is one form of dieting. Don't over feed is so much easier and cheaper.

[Koidaddy]

Well I am not fasting old Tweet, he already knocked the veggie filter over because he wasn't getting enough food. When I read about how much some people feed their koi I am sure they need to be on a diet and fasting is one form of dieting. Don't over feed is so much easier and cheaper.

One cannot think well, love well, sleep well, if one has not dined well. - Virginia Woolf

KD
:grin:

[philly]

There is a saying if you can't enjoy eating things now you can't when you're gone! :phfft: