The winter of ponds

[Ian]

I thought I would share some thinking and or observations of three ponds we have outside. All three still have ice but have melted to a point were two more days of spring temps will melt it off.
Pond#1 7500gal no fish or plants in the system. In the fall it was drained and the koi brought inside for the winter. The only waste that was in the pond was collected in late fall and winter such as leaves after the koi and filter were removed. Has been under complete ice cover and minimum 12"(30cm) of snow all winter to a near thaw today. We did a dump of water from the bottom drain with some leaves and gunk coming out but not too much. The smell was so bad you had to walk away from the pit. Was very surprised at the smell of the water and could not imagine a fish could survive in it.

Pond#2 1000gal 0r so garden pond with plants only and no wintering fish. water looks nasty lots of leaves. Does not look like fish would fair well that is for sure. Considering it froze to the bottom and all survival would have been slim at best. Plants seem to survive as a tribute to there hardiness.

Pond #3 2000 gal Three yamabuki koi were left in for an experiment. One 6" and two 4". No hole in the ice or snow since December and is still 60% covered with ice, you really could not tell there was a pond there all winter. The pond has lots of leaves at the bottom from the winter and the water clear . There is also three yamabuki swimming alive and well. Not sure what conclusions I could make of it but found it interesting that a small fish load can survive even without the hole in the ice.
Things that make you go hmmmmmmmmmm

[ozzyrockman]

Ian, I have to ask if you noticed any color change while they where on ice? I must say the smell of the water directly reflects the parameters. I went to a property earlier this year and they had a refrigerator on the back deck that leached liquefied food into the pond and let me tell ya the smell of the water was not pleasant however the gold fish that where in the pond where alive. Also this was in Feb so I am not sure how long they would have survived in those conditions once the water temps came up but they are surprisingly resilient.

The sanke below was found last year in a hot tub converted into a pond and was left for dead with no pump or filter and for sure was abandon from Oct 03-Feb 04 with nothing but about 500g of water. With the age being unknow I would say she is probably going on four now and I think she was stunted a bit from living in tight nasty quarters however I have noticed some growth since I put her in the big pond so I think she will grow to full size without problem. Allen

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v698/ozzyrockman/DSCF0002.jpg

[Jackie Ramo]

Well I broke all the rules and ran the skimmer and biofalls all season. The pond is totally thawed and with the exception of one faking it in the greenhouse now, all fish are up and looking for food. Lots of string aglae but because of the skimmer litter in the way of leaves or debris, water tested great all winter.

I was even moving some rocks at the edge to see what kind of sludge and dirt Icould find, with a eye of what and when to clean out. I found a few leaves and fir needles but no sludge at all. No smell or gunk.

Ian, could have the smelly water been sitting in the pipes of the bottom drain? Mind you have a lot more trees than I do.

[Ian]

The three Yami's look good and excellent color. My hunch was that they were going to survive and this was due to the stocking density. Three larger koi I would think may have ended up with dead fish. They were in pond#3 and is only three feet deep which would have given them only a matter of inches left of water due to the ice being at least 2 feet thick. It kind of explains to me how so many people can have no problems the first few years of overwintering koi. There is a point were the pond can no longer be able to sustain a larger size and number of fish. Add a hole in the ice and I think you would raise the bar on size of fish load and their survival. Add air and the bar I think would raise again providing that your not cooling the pond water to low. Water under the ice sits at 38F and if cooled lower than that I beleive you start to put stress on the koi and it makes it harder to survive the winter. Tough as we all know but finding their limits is easy as we all seem to find out.

Pond#1 and the smell was weird as the bottom drain has let at least 1000gals overflow as the ice was melting. This was not just water that was in the drain but a good sample of the water at the bottom. No fish in the pond so this is soley due to the organics collected in the fall and winter. Has me wondering if the fish keep life going in a pond and this pond just up and died to rot.

Jackie I think your example of your raised scale koi can be a sign of the koi coming to it's limits. It may or may not be related in the fact that you had everything running all winter. It may or may not be the reason all your fish survived. We know when a death occurs we have gone past their limits and the system needs somthing done different to raise the percentage for their survival.

[Jackie Ramo]

I think I could have left Spice outside and he would have been fine. I have a tendancy to take the safest option when dealing with the first signs of illness. I know a mildly sick fish is easier to cure than a very sick one. He is fine now, warm water (too quickly :uhoh: ) and salt were all he needed. Left out he may have been fine or he may have developed dropsey or ulcers. Why take the chance? I do know he had his share of problems last year with Ich where I was sure he was going to die. This means he didn't go into the winter in as good as shape as his companions.

I think I am running my system at its limits by the end of the summer and will have to downsize the number again this year. Last year I gave 5 away but took in 2... that was only a downsize of 3 and less now since the fish are all bigger... At the rate Elf is growing I'll have to give away 3 to keep him !wow!

Course with my luck allthe females will sapwn this year....
!rofl

[Wulff]

Interesting discussion.

Having overwintered fish for 2 years now Im growing increasingly concerned about it. Spring for me last year was a disaster. I didn't lose any fish but that was probably more about blind luck and young fish than anything else. Despite a great deal of care in the fall to clean and prep the pond and to protect it with both netting ( placed in late Sept) and a greenhouse left over the entire winter the clean up in the spring was extreme and it too Ian had a smell that would give a buzzard second thoughts.

This spring things are better, but still the water quality is not good and once again Im surprised all the fish survived. Added to the problem is dead frogs that tried to overwinter. I've netted out 6 so far and all I can say is thank god the ice prevented any decay.

I think *next* winter Im going to bite the bullet and set up temporary housing in the basement for all the fish. That way I drain the pond and take my pressure washer to give it a good, thurough cleaning and finish it with a shop vac, cover it with bird netting and call it a season.

As to why some fish survive in what can only be described as less than good conditions, who knows they are likely far more adaptable and hardy than we give them credit for (beta's come to mind). I know my first pond which was 500g and 18 inches deep used to overwinter frogs and they would survive. My sister has left feeder goldfish in her barrel water feature and they've survived over the winter. The three fish in your smaller pond are likeky a good example of whats possible. What little water there is has to be toxix ( have you taken any measurements? ) and yet........

I recall last year you described the dangers of a particular "natural" filter some guys was using that for lack of better words was a composter. Im thinking small ponds with a lot of matter in them from leaves and algae etc wouldnt be much different.

[ozzyrockman]

Wulff, can you tell us more about your pond and the equipment you have for it. Allen

[Jackie Ramo]

If the changes in the water come on slowly. I think the fish deal with them better. But if the water parameters change abruptly I think the fish have more difficulties.

Wulf points out why it is important to test the water even in winter. One should also have the ability to do a water change in winter. A hose kept in the basement and a sump pump are all that are needed. I don't have to start the outside tap up again as I can hook up to the greenhouse tap but its not a big deal to turn the outside water on, as long as one remembers to turn it off again. Our last house had the tap connections that didn't need to be turned off, not possible in this house because the hook up is in the garage.


In addition, I don't think a hole in the ice is enough if you have a good fish load. Then I think you need to add air or circulation to help with the off gassing. A few fish, as Ian posted can survive but if you are at stocking density then more needs to be done to over winter.

[Wulff]

Gladly.
I'm a good example of someone whos learning on the fly and made alot of mistakes in the process.

I started off like most "ponders" about 6 years ago with a 'water feature" of about 500 gallons. I got hooked and while my intention was never to get into Koi ( as I know them now), I always liked the comets or "fish". Three seasons ago I decided I wanted to overwinter and increase the size of my "puddle". So I went to my local retailer and asked what I needed to do. The advice bascially amounted to.....go 4 feet, add this canister and everything will be fine, including adding Koi.

So I increased the pond size and went to a depth of about 4 feet only on what would be the exapnsion, added a canister filter and like anyone else some Koi. So no bottom drains, no skimmer, etc. Last winter was my first.

Last "spring" I knew the system was on the verge of collapse and that I needed to make some drastic changes but was limted with space and practicalty..I had to work with what little I had. Again Im more of a "ponder" than a koi hobbyist. I prefer to think of my pond as a mini ecosystem and its all good, both the good and bad inherant in that.

First step was a DYI gravity filter system. Two 100g drums. The first being mechanical and the second biological (Kaldness). As well I added a "pre-filter" cum veggie pond of about 300 gallons.

So today the main pond is about 1500 gallons ( anoth mistake we arent warned about getting exact capacity) which feed the dyi barrel filters, which feed the veggie pond before returning to the pond holding my fish. All in all its infinately better but still has room for improvement including thinning my herd now that the koi are growing.

All my koi are now 7inches or more and I have 8 koi as well as about that many comets and their brood. Its taxed to the limit but the fish are fine and Ive yet to run into any problems, but thats just a matter of time imo, aided only by their young age ( 2 to 3 years ).

So with regards to overwintering, I think the fish could very well do ok and they are remarkably adaptable but "why chance it". The upside would be both a good fall cleaning and then again in the spring. No matter what we try theres always going to be matter and hence decay come spring unless the system is kept running thoughout. Is it much different from a composter once the ice in?

[Ian]

The true nature of the winter and spring have arrived for the three yamibuki. Now the ice has gone the problems are starting with the koi. Having survived being under ice with no hole or circulation the spring temps now bring on the nasty stuff. One of the koi has died and one has gone red with raising scales, the third looks good still. The bacteria count must be through the roof due to just the leaves at the bottom. Having toughed it out all winter the warming water brings on more than they can handle. Out of five years we kept our koi under the ice we never lost one due to the understanding that any waste accumilated has to be removed as soon as possible before the water temps start to rise. Koi are at their weakest point in the spring and can not fight the faster bacteria as the water temp rises. A bottom drain is a very useful tool in removing the waste as the ice melts as you do not have to stress out the koi to clean the bottom.

[Tammygirl815]

Hi all, I too left my falls and skimmer on the whole winter, not one problem. Now that spring has sprung I have begone to see problems, the koi are flashing, I did the water testing all is well with that so I got a bucket, added the propper amount of salt and gave the 2 koi a salt bath. I chased them around the pond for half hour, put them in it and let them go for 30 min. Cleaned out the pond a little. I now know I used the wronge kind of salt, I was told on another board, the man at the store told me it was ok, he was wronge! I hope it doesn't harm my fish! :-x

[Jackie Ramo]

Don't worry Denise there a several kinds of salt that are ok to use. I assume the fish survived :frisbee:

How are they now?

[Tammygirl815]

Hi Jackie, They seem ok now I have to check on them this morning still. G told me I used the wrong stuff, but it was to late, I did the bath after I checked the water. I am glad I didn't put it in the whole pond, I just used a bucket. Weather he is still flashing or not I don't know yet, didn't want to stress them out any more than I had to.

[ozzyrockman]

Sorry for the delay in posting to this thread. Wulff, do you salt your pond, do you have water circulation during the winter and do you have an opportunity to clean the bottom of the pond ie dead plant matter from the pond prior to freezing? From the sounds of it Jackie has an excellent way of keeping the water circulating thru her skimmer and if I remember she has a heater that keeps the opening from freezing keeping in mind you don't want to draw the warm water from the bottom of the pond.

From my experience as an additional preventative I salt our big pond to .1 up to .3 in the fall and in the spring and don't really pay too close attention to the salt levels between times unless I start seeing potential problems and let the water changes remove the salt over time. My thoughts are with as much discussion on the topic of salt it cannot be bad to do this especially when the koi's immune system is so vulnerable. Allen

[Jackie Ramo]

Allan, the general thought these days is to not salt the ponds over winter especially to the 0.3% level. Parasites can and do get used to this level of salt and then salt can no longer be used at safe levels to get rid of them. That is why so many salt resistant parasties are being found these days.

For myself I've never salted my pond over the winter, too many plants :grin:

I do think that circulation of the pond is important especially with big fish or a high fish load. Lets face it one little hole in the ice just isn't enough for these ponds. These are the people you see posting now about a lot of dead fish in the pond and asking what went wrong.