Japanese Syunai

[Tom Donald]

When I first heard about the Japanese singletail Syonai (Shonai), I was a bit puzzled. At first glance the Shonai looks just like a Comet, so I was compelled to do a little research to try and sort out why it was that two singletails that appeared to be the same, had two different names. The Japanese language barrier did not help, but eventually I was able to put together enough pieces of the puzzle that a reasonbly clear picture began to emerge.

The Sabao group of Japanese singletail goldfish (Sabao, Tamasaba, Fukudaruma) with their short round bodies, evolved from an original cross between Shonai and Ryukin. I was told that Shonai was like Comet, but different.

Shonai and Comet look similar, or the same, so what is different about them? These two goldfish forms appear to have evolved simultaneously, but in two very different parts of the world. Their form is very similar, with slender body and long fins, but their ancestry is quite different.

Turns out that both originated in the late 1800's, but not in the same place. The Comet is credited as an American creation, first bred as a "sport" or chance occurance, from regular "common" goldfish, or Hibuna, stock. The Comet went on to be one of the most well known and abundant of all goldfish in North America, familiar to many as "feeder goldfish". Fortunately many of us value them for the wonderfull pond fish that they are.

But Shonai was created in a completely different way, in the northwest region of Japan's main island, from a cross between the native Gibel carp (the ancestor of ALL goldfish) to an early form of the Oranda goldfish. The resulting Shonai was then selectively bred for cold tolerence inherited from the native carp, and had intense red color on the upper half of the body, with a white underbelly.

So, how does one tell Comet from Shonai these days? Apparantly only by knowing the origin, or genetics, of the individual. It seems there are only a few breeders of Shonai that remain, in the Yamagata region of Japan. So, if an individual fish in question was imported from one of these few remaining breeders, or bred from their stock, it'll be a Shonai (Syonai). If not, then it will be a Comet. It's all in the pedigree breeding (genetic makeup) of the individual. Also, the genes for wen developement on the head of the early form of Oranda still exists in the pure Shonai population, some individuals may still develope this trait, which will not be seen on a pure Comet.

Atached are a few photos of Shonai, one showing wen developement on the head. I have other photos if anyone is interested in seeing them.

Tom

[marla]

Thanks Tom for the info, very interesting. The coloring so red, like some of the Sarrassa Comets I purchased, the "feeder goldfish" I got were more orange. I'd like to get more of the darker ones in the pond, first I have to rehome the lighter short tailed ones, as DH prefers the longer tailed ones.

[Tom Donald]

Shonai was developed by crossing what was called the "Dutch lionhead" to the native Japanese Gibel carp. This would have been a backcross to the original wild carp from which all goldfish derived, rather than an outcross to a different form of carp. From this cross, vigor, agility, and cold tolerance would have been inherited from the native carp.

As for the Dutch lionhead, well, hard to know for sure what they looked like over a hundred years ago, but my guess is they would have been similar to what is called the Japanese Nagate Oranda today. I believe the Dutch lionhead was the Chinese Oranda originally brought to Japan from China by Dutch sailing traders, and would likely not have been the exaggerated body form and head growth that we know today.

Here's a few photos of the Gibel carp, and the Nagate Oranda (bred currently as a top view goldfish in Japan).

Tom

[Tom Donald]

I understand that the traditional Shonai is evolving a bit to meet modern demands. Originally Shonai was typically brilliant red above the lateral line, ie red back, with white below the lateral line, meaning white belly. Current and recent photos now show red extending below the lateral line, and the top view is leaning more towards step patterns such as we see in kohaku koi. I suppose this could be seen as "progress" in the breed, hard to know without talking to breeders and fanciers of Shonai. I think, but not sure, two traits of Shonai that may be slightly different than Comet is slightly heavier body type and perhaps slightly longer fins in mature adults. Very difficult to get the fine points on this breed without talking to Japanese breeders, but all the same, a very interesting and striking Japanese pond hardy goldfish.

Tom

[Tom Donald]

I was quite surprised to discover that even though Comets and Shonai look so much alike, they have quite different genetic backgrounds. Here's a few photos of Comets just for comparison and enjoyment, from Steve Hopkins' Raingarden site in Hawaii. All young fish, not chosen for color, just liked these photos :)

Tom

[Jackie Ramo]

Tom. thanks for the entertaining education on goldfish. Always had a soft spot for the old comet.

[Tom Donald]

Here's a few more pics to help round out our understanding and appreciation of Shonai. I think outside of Japan, Shonai is virtually unkown, perhaps even in Japan Shonai is largely overshadowed by Comet. There is a movement underway in Japan to help increase it's popularity, rightly so I'd say being that it's rightfull place is that of a heritage goldfish, and nearly lost to history altogether. My understanding is that breeding was done in one town in the Yamagata region, floods took out the majority of the breeding ponds and nearly the entire population ended up in the sea of Japan.

Tom

[Terri]

Tom, thanks for you wonderful information. You've rekindled my interest in goldfish :)

I quite like the Shonai. I don't think I would like to have any that developed a wen - is this something that would be common in the genetic pool for this type?

[philly]

Tom Thanks for the info. I have to say the deep reds are outstanding, would like to see it on the Kohaku koi some day. I also like how the red extend down lower on the body of the fish shows up much nicer when viewed from the sides. :)

[Tom Donald]

Terri my interest in goldfish is primarily to have that final touch in the garden, something that catches the eye and holds interest when puttering in the yard and when visitors discover the pond on a yard tour. But in addition to that, and thanks primarily to the internet options these days, I find that I am completely fascinated with where it all began. In North America it seems our hobby is just a drop in the ocean compared to what else is happening with goldfish, and the more one explores the topic the fascination begins to grow exponentially.

I discovered the existance of Shonai during a conversation with Tamakin about the evolution of the Sabao group; Sabao, Tamasaba and Fukudaruma.
He said that it all started with an outcross of Shonai with Ryukin, and that the intent was to make a cold hardy singletail that was different from either parent. When I asked what was Shonai, he replied they are like Comet but different. This of course caught my attention and I was curious enough to start digging. Tamakin is very busy lately and not able to take the time to answer endless questions, so I just started to investigate on my own as best I could with the problem of interpreting Japanese. I was fascinated to discover that Shonai and Comet, although similar in most ways, are in fact very different in the process of their evolution. The point that these two similar forms developed in parallel, but in two different parts of the world, was a treat to discover.

I don't yet know the finer details of this topic, but soon Tamakin will be able to fill in the blanks and maybe correct my interpretations, but to answer your question about the wen developement on Shonai, I would doubt this is a dominant trait with them. My guess is that this trait occurs only occasionally and is most likely recessive in nature, based on the photos I've seen hardly any display this. My guess is that it could be selected for if one chose, being that it exits in the genes, and also I did find one photo where perhaps this might be the case. You expressed not caring for the wen trait, fair enough, but to me it's more a matter of taking in the broader strokes of understanding and generally what's going on in the much bigger picture of goldfish culture.

Philly, your point about liking the red extending below the lateral line, seems to reflect what is happening these days in Japan. Traditionally, I think the hallmark of the breed was the separation of red and white at the lateral line, but market pressure is demanding change similar to what you have expressed. Personally, I find that the traditional markings help make the Shonai distinct and immediately recognizable, and because of this my vote would be to maintain this distinction. To me it would be like saying that kohaku koi would look better if the red markings wrapped the entire body. A pretty fish, no doubt, but no longer kohaku as we know it, rather a spin off that would deserve another name. But, just my opinion :)

Photo attached is what I believe is Shonai bred to exaggerate body type and wen developement, but I'm not completely sure about the details yet.

Tom

[Jackie Ramo]

Very interesting Tom. I think there may develop Kahaku that are viewable by the side as more and more people are putting viewing windows in their ponds. These folks would welcome koi attractive at this angle although past breedings have been to give the best view from the top.

[Tom Donald]

Viewing windows in a pond :thumbsup: how incredible to hear that. I've been out of the koi loop for quite a few years, but this is a logical progression and makes sense for those with the means to do it. A great big outdoor aquarium, keeping the glass clean would be a constant pain though :crybaby:

I'm real curious if a new name would be attached to the kohaku variant so that confusion is avoided, to me this would be logical. I remember similar discussions in the dog world, where a traditional working breed was becoming popular witht the show folks, and the topic of the day was whether or not the variant should be labelled differently to avoid confusion with the original form. My vote was always in favor of giving the new version a new name otherwise it starts to get complicated.

Interesting parallels though between Shonai and kohaku koi. I am intrigued with two big forces of change in the Shonai world, one is to revive the breed from the edge of oblivion, the other is to jazz it up a bit, very interesting dynamics going on in Japan. These two photos reflect those changes away from the traditional arrangement of red and white.

Tom

[Jackie Ramo]

The purist will always want the original form and the business man will create what sells.

[Tom Donald]

Yes that is so true. :yup:

The wise Japanese goldfish breeder understands this vital point and provides to both markets. I'm still trying to determine the labels they use for the new versions, but here's a few more shots of the nominate, original, or "bred to standard" Shonai, as far as I know it.

By contrast, Comets would not have any color or markings to set it apart from other goldfish breeds, just body form and fin length.

Tom

[Tom Donald]

I'm interested to know about tail length in Shonai compared to Comet. The British standard for Comet tail length is greater than three quarters of body length. But with Shonai there may not be an ideal length with the traditional form, photos show considerable variation. Possibly this is changing also :dunno:

[Terri]

The Shonai dorsal fins seem much higher than that of comets - reminds me of a shark fin.

[Tom Donald]

My guess is that because of the original cross of wild Gibel carp and a form quite different in many ways, the "Dutch Lionhead", the resulting gene pool although small, would become quite diverse for many traits like fin type, body length, possibly head shape and all that. I know when I cross my Hibuna with Fantail I get a great deal of variation of traits in the first cross, some traits quite subtle but others not so, like fin shape and body type. Because the gene pool remains closed after the first outcross, these traits would come and go within the population as these same genes recombine with every new generation.

Here's some young Comets from Steve Hopkins that look to me like they would meet the British standard for tail length. My guess is modern Shonai is gradually morphing towards this sort of tail length, we should get a good idea one way or another as photos of each new generation appear in circulation.

I suspect that Shonai will become available for export to North America in the near future because it enjoys the status of being a heritage fish of Japanese goldfish culture, representative of the Yamagata region, and also was nearly lost completely.

[philly]

I noticed that the tails at the V is a lot slimmer or narrower is that due to the cross breeding's ?

[Tom Donald]

Philly if you're referring to the last set of photos, those are pure bred Comets from Steve in Hawaii. They wouldn't be cross bred, they are good examples of the variety based on the British show standard. Tails vary to some degree in Comets, they are mass produced commercially and these fish tend not to show quite the same tail length as the ones bred for showing, as I understand it anyway. Tail lobe width seems to vary, from long, narrow and pointed, to long, wider and rounded. Here's a couple shots of young Comets bred for show in England. The Japanese breeders have taken Comet developement to new levels compared to the "west", especially in color and pattern.

[philly]

Tom, I prefer the looks on this group of Comets, and Thanks for keeping us informed on what's going on as we have a little more time in the winter months we can do a little more reading and expand our knowledge a little further.
:thumbsup:

[Tom Donald]

Philly I was interested in the variation within the goldfish we call Comet. In North America we see commercial grade Comets sold by the millions with not a great deal of variation between them in body shape and tail length. But in the UK, a show quality Comet must have tail length greater than three quarters body length. In Japan, it seems the Comet always has long flowing fins, and color/pattern developement is the most advanced in the world. Also, we have Shonai which at first glance looks to be a Comet but in fact is not. I thought this was all quite interesting to take a closer look at.

Here's a couple of young UK show quality Comets, and three young Shonai for comparison.

Tom

[Jackie Ramo]

Must say that I really like the tail on the UK comets. sharp v shape adds something.

[philly]

I noticed that a couple of the young Shonai the color wraps around the fishes body is that normal, and I much prefer the longer tails on the UK show quality Comets.

[carcha koi]

They look nice. Strength and fancy all in one.

[Tom Donald]

Philly I think the traditional markings for Shonai is for the red to be above the lateral line, but recent market demand is changing to suit aquarium side view, and red is more commonly seen now below the lateral line. Also, from top view, there seems to be more interest now in creating patterns such as we see on kohaku koi and also Japanese comets.

It's interesting that the Brits seem to be the only ones that require a certain tail length in their show Comets, everyone else apparantly don't care that much about it. Below are examples of Comets with tails shorter than what the British show standard requires. I think the Japanese concentrate more on color and pattern, and North Americans are still basically not really interested one way or the other in cultivating a standard bred Comet, either for tail length or color/pattern developement. I think that in North America the Comet is generally considered to be of very little value beyond feeder fish or something cheap and disposable for the pond or aquarium.

Tom

[Tom Donald]

Another interesting point about Comets is color. Some refer to Comets that are calico marked as Calico Comets, others call them Shubunkins. The Brits have a show standard for Calico Comets. Not sure if tail length is the deciding factor to determine what is Calico Comet and what is Shubunkin, or the two terms are just used intermixed. Anybody know?

Tom

[carcha koi]

I always thought Calico were salt and pepper pattern where shubkin had a more defined pattern

[Tom Donald]

There seems to be quite a bit of confusion on this Chris from what I know. It's almost like the rules for what is what, is dependant on which culture you're in, there's lots of interpretations apparantly. The Brits (or at least the Bristol Aquarists group) recognize their own Bristol Shubunkin, which has a distinct "B" shape to the tail, but otherwise to them the last bunch of photos would be termed Calico Comets rather than Shubunkins.

I think it's quite neat that there's so much controversy over the little feeder fish that we tend to take for granted. The world of the Comet is much bigger than I ever thought.

T.

[carcha koi]

I got away from golfish many years ago. There were always a lot of variety but the breading in the Comets, Shubumkin and Calico have advanced so much.

[philly]

Tom, you sure have done a lot of research and the photos are excellent you can definitely see quite a bit of difference between each species, :thumbsup: I did notice that the colors are a little more solid instead of broken up and looking from the top they also resemble koi. Keep up the great work and a big Thanks for keeping us informed.
:thankU: :2cool:

[Tom Donald]

Philly, winter has come early where I am so there's lots of time indoors to spend on the internet. :-)

I've been interested in goldfish since I was a kid, and in my teens I was fortunate to travel to Japan. These days, thanks to the internet, researching goldfish culture in Japan and other Asian countries is almost limitless, so the passion is constantly re-fuelled. I'm very interested in how deeply the Asians value their goldfish and the role this plays in their societies. We're not as fortunate in North America to have this influence to this extent, but I discover little pockets of goldfish passion spread thinly across this massive continent. I hope that some day all these little dots will connect thanks to the internet, and our culture will become even more enriched with this goldfish hobby.

I'm specifically interested in the types of goldfish suitable for our outdoor ponds. I discovered that there is so much going on in the world of singletail goldfish that it becomes like reading a good book, you just can't get enough. So, I wanted to share what I learn on this topic, and hope that others find it of some interest.

"Once upon a time, in a far off land called China, there was a little orangey-brown carp swimming peacefully in a quiet river, minding his own business" ........ :-)

[Jackie Ramo]

Now you have me laughing Tom!! I do appreciate you sharing your learning experience. I am learning quite a bit from you.

[philly]

Tom, how does outdoor ponds do out your way as the temperature are much colder than Toronto ? in the city the frost line is 3' to maybe 3'.5" maximum so 3' will be alright for most ponds built here. How far down do you have to dig your way to avoid having any problems ?

[Tom Donald]

Philly, I winter my fish in glass tanks in the basement. Winters where I am are long and cold in general as you say, so I'd rather spend the time puttering with my goldfish rather than fretting about them surviving until spring. I do have a huge pond near me that is at least 25 feet deep, my extra fish end up there and winter fine. This pond was created because the local rancher built a dam on a natural spring to water his cows, so this became an ideal fish pond.

I used to keep a lot of tanks and an indoor pond in my basement, but because I work away from home a lot, I've cut back to just a few tanks and only keep a handfull of breeders and some young of the year to grow out. These fish spend the winter in the house, then are transferred to my garden pond in the spring. I'm working mostly with yellow Hibuna right now, I'm interested to make yellow/white bicolor which would be the yellow counterpart to sarassa. (yellowassa? :-) ) I crossed yellow Hibuna this year with Fantail to make yellow Sabao. These youngsters are just now coloring up and their body shape is slightly shorter and a bit deeper than Hibuna, a very pleasing deviation from the natural Hibuna form without exaggeration or compromising agility and general swimming ability. With my garter snake friends appearing each spring I can't afford to have any slow moving or wobbly swimmers so this cross should work out fine. I'll get some photos of these guys later on when they've got more body size and everyone has changed from their natural dark color.

The first photo attached shows some of the fish I used for crossing last year, second is the Sabao shape I'm interested in (except my direction is yellow and white rather than red/white), third is one of my yellow Hibuna when very young last spring.

Tom

[philly]

HAPPY NEW YEAR! Tom, if the large pond is 25" deep how do you catch the fish you wintered in it ? When you crossed yellow Hibuna with the Fantail what effects does it have on the tails ? The yellow on the last photo is very bright shows up really nice. I myself would like to have a marine tank set up one day but go away quite often so have to wait till my traveling time is a lot lot less.
:yup:

[Tom Donald]

Phil, the big pond (probably a couple acres in size) is where I release my excess fish, and once they're in there I don't intend to catch them again. I have very large koi in there going back about 15 years, they are doing exceptionally fine to this day. This pond is about a mile from my house, in the hills, so when I go walking in the hills I look forward to reaching the pond and having a look to see who I can see. This is a naturally sustaining population of koi and goldfish, they thrive but the population is naturally controlled. It's been quite a neat project actually.

Crossing Hibuna with Fantail, the young are all singletail but with varying lobe size and shape. This probably means that the double tail gene is recessive to singletail, but it also might mean that anything hatched double tail gets eaten early on in the pond by the bigger fish, they would be a bit slower moving. What I'm looking for in the cross is the slightly shorter and deeper body, but in a more suble way because natural predation will ultimately decide the limits to departing from the natural form.

As for the yellow color in goldfish, I am very impressed with how nicely this color shows in the pond. I plan to focus on yellow, but experiment a bit for some variety. The first photo attached is an example of yellow/white that interests me (Hibuna in Japan, not mine). To make these I will cross yellow Hibuna to Sarassa Hibuna. The second photo is my place in the fall, (at the bottom of the frame is my yard) and the pond where I release my fish is in the hills to the left.

All the best in '09 everyone :yup: :smile: :thumbsup:

Tom

[Jackie Ramo]

A lovely spot there Tom. The yellow and white is truly interesting and I can see why you would want to breed them.

[philly]

Very nice Tom looks like you have your privacy there, how far are your closest neighbor and does the road end at the left past the house ? I see it's a little bit of a walk from the house to the pond must be very relaxing when taking a long walk over there. How large are the koi and goldfish that you have released in the large pond ? they say fish grows according to their environment so they must be very large since it's been quite a few years.

[Tom Donald]

Hi Phil - my place is below the ridge right behind the deer, in the photo attached.

You can see I'm quite close to town, right on town limits actually. My place is directly above a small prairie river that winds through the town.

I use river water for my yard and pond all summer. My pond is not filtered so I add river water often for water changes, and also my goldfish numbers are kept low so this system works fine. I've had this pond for about 25 years.

The road to the left of my property (in the previous photo) actually curves to the right, and just out of the picture on the right is our T Rex museum where the skeleton of a locally found T Rex is being worked on. The skeleton is not yet mounted for display but the paleo folks are heading in that direction. There's a lot of fossils and dinasour remains in my area.

The koi in my pond in the hills are quite huge, hard to say much more than that as they are not tame like koi at home are. When I walk the edge of the pond I may spot them if I'm lucky, but they're usually at some distance and any movement will cause them to go into deeper water. So, any sighting is a special occasion but nearly impossible to photograph.

Tom

[philly]

It's a very nice area looks very peaceful, my friend's relative has a Trout pond and he has the water from the stream go into a little area he dug out with a pump which pumps water into the pond and then water flows back into the stream by gravity. How is your set up for water changes ?

[Tom Donald]

My place is above the river, you can see the trees surrounding my house, and the height above the river in the first photo. I pump river water all summer for the yard, so for a water change I just put the hose in the pond and let it overflow. The overflow water leaves in a bunch of areas around the pond, and waters the garden and trees to some degree. My pond is almost no work, and stocking levels are not high. Don't have any water plants, too much shade. But I do have lots of overhanging tall grasses and shrubs that drop towards the pond to take their place, and also provide a sense of shelter for the goldfish.

The second photo shows my place (in the trees about the centre of the photo), and the TRex centre to the foreground right. The building is quite amazing, it's set into the hill. In this shot you're looking at the back of the building. The "lake" in the back of the photo is where the river is dammed, to create a very large reservoir (great for a canoe).

[philly]

The house looks ranch style, what's that large gully before the house from where the photo was taken ? the TRex centre looks like it's built into the ground probably around the bones, maybe I will visit it one day soon.

[Tom Donald]

That photo was taken from the golf course, looking towards my place Phil. The building you can see on the right is now a cottage rental, but it used to be my horse barn. My house is in the trees on the left of the photo, and the river is below, just to the left of where the photo was taken.

The T Rex Centre is built into the hill to create the feeling of discovering buried remnants from the distant past, quite a clever idea the architects had. You can see the front of the building behind the Redtailed hawk on the right of this photo. The building on the left is the front of the barn, the building you can see in the photo taken from the golf course.

The hawk is my bird, he was rehabilitated at the vet college, then I conditioned him for release, now he lives free and has established a home territory at my place.

If you are interested in visiting, take a look at our website, I think we would have a great deal to talk about!

[philly]

Tom, it's great to meet some of the members and put a face to that person you are always corresponding with, and since you are only a hop skip and a jump away, I will add going out your way to my long list, but visiting time will have to be in the summer. As I HATE the COLD! The hawk seems very comfortable where it is, by any chance is it somewhat tame, it's looks like you have a quite a big piece of land, how many acres are you on ?
:-)

[Tom Donald]

Phil that hawk is semi-tame only to myself, to all others he is now essentially a wild hawk. There's a long and very interesting story to this bird, he's progressed from being an almost dead hawk, rescued and rehabilitated, and now he's fully functional as a wild hawk that migrates, returns, and has established a breeding territory around town and has paired up. All because a few people took the time to help him.

My place is on a couple acres, the land around me is either town property or owned by ranchers.

I found another photo of Shonai that I'd like to add to the ones already posted. This one clearly shows the traditional red back with white belly:

[philly]

Tom, it's fantastic to see such a bond between human and a wild bird, he must trust you a lot, what an accomplishment! to nurse it and back to good health and have it in return make a home at your place. It's nice to have the acreage and privacy as the town and ranchers property will be also be quite large so your neighbors will be miles away from you. The fish in the photo has deep red and snow white colors, it's amazing how far they have advanced with the breeding technique to get such great results.