Help!!!

[marla]

Help, I found a goldfish in the pond barely swimming, I think it has fungas, it also has some red streaking in the abdomen. Is it to late, and does that mean the rest of the goldfish and koi may also have it. What to do. I did bring it in in a bucket and put some fungas eliminater that I have for my aquariums in it. What else? Attached a picture not the best

[Jackie Ramo]

Don't panic, he doesn't look that bad.

You've done the right thing by bringing him in. Can you say what kind of med you put in the water and what temp the water was? Many meds do not work at low temps. Again, don't worry about that right now. first let's warm him up a bit, just let the water warm don't do anything. Also get another bucket of pond water to warm up in case we want to move him from those meds into something else.

do you have an air pump? A big of air would be good.

[Terri]

It's most likely SAP, most common in cooler water. The red streaking would most likely be caused by stress... hopefully you do not have to deal with a secondary infection... temp of water he was pulled from? He doesn't look too bad off from the pic but a close-up might show more.

Do you have an airstone with air pump to use in the bucket? Any medication(chem) should be accompanied with extra O2 (that includes salt).

Ideally you would want to move this little guy into something bigger, slowly warm up the water into the mid 70's(F). Salt would have been enough to kill off the SAP(or so it's been my experience) but use the treatment you have since you've started it.

It's possible that the other fish are fine but if you get a visual on them to see do so. What's the temp of your pond water now? Have you tested the water in the pond recently?

[Terri]

Jackie you must type faster than I do... ;)

[Jackie Ramo]

Used to do 120 words aminute but now do 5 :lol:

I figured sap since I know Marla and her temps will be cold.

I'd prefer to treat topically which is why I suggested another bucket of pond water to move him into and out of the med used. I've not had the same luck with salt and sap that you have had.

[Jackie Ramo]

More information then you need but the article is excellent and near the end he covers all the treatments.

http://koivet.com/html/articles/articles_details.php?article_id=256

I nagged REC for 2 years to write this article after my fish died of Sap.

[marla]

The water temp is about 44-45 should I add a heater? what I put in the water is called fungus eliminator its by jungle products, it's granularsays 100%sodium chloride, nitrofurazone,furazolidone, potassium dichromate (needed to get the magnifing glass, must need new glasses) I also have a liquid by wardley's called complete remedy, the active ingrediant is sodium chlorite. No I don't know the water parameters because I guess I'm dumb and never bought a test kit. I have a decommissoned 20 gal, with undergravel filter I could set up. have a airstone but not a pump, just a airhead pump

[Jackie Ramo]

Set him up in the 20 gallon and don't heat the water. He will be room temp or just below by morning and then we can consider heating him. Use pond water to fill the 20 galllon.

When you remove him from the bucket have on hand, a wet towel, a few qtips, a bottle of iodine. With a firm hold on the fish lay him on the towel, using the qtips dipped in iodine remove the fungus. I prefer a soft baby toothbrush but not everyone has one on hand. give a light scrub so the iodine goes under the scales. Pop him into the tank. Salt to 0.1% tonight and raise it to 0.2% tomorrow morning.

Do not repeat the iodine treatment.
Do not add any other meds or things to the water except salt.
do not add the water that he is now in to the tank.

go out and buy test kits tomorrow
:D

[marla]

do I use just regular table salt? not sure if any one is open tonight, maybe it's 7:30 here. if table salt, I'm bad at math in 10gal how much is that?

[Jackie Ramo]

Yes regular table salt is fine in this case. 1 tsp per gallon tonight and repeat in the morning. so 10 tsp or 3 tablespoons plus a teaspoon. Please use the baking measuring spoons and not the coffee one ;) I'd disovle the salt first in such a small space. I thought you said it was a 20 gallon?

Didn't mean to be so bossy in my last post, was tying to get it down and hubby was yelling for dinner :D

I thought you said it was a 20 gallon? If so just double the dose. How's he holding up?

[marla]

My appologies to your husband for his late dinner. It is a 20gal but I only put 10gals in it, got so dark I was tripping on rocks. my hubby thinks I'm crazy trying to save a 25cent goldfish from petco. Last week I found another goldfish dead, besides the koi I had found a few weeks ago, do you think they all had it? Tommorrow I'm going to get rid of the rest of the Ice if I can an pray the others are ok. Thanks so much, he looks real bad, don't know if he'll make it but I'm going to try.

[luke frisbee]

Marla,
good for you if you want to save that fish...does your husband have a case of the town's brewery handy? i'll come and e-watch you, and e-drink with him?

[Jackie Ramo]

Just remember to get those water test tomorrow Marla. Clear the ice gently don't be banging on it ;) What can be done for now has been done. The fish has to co-operate by wanting to live.

What kind of e-drink are you looking for Luke. I'll have e-scotch.

[marla]

Ok, the fish made it through the night. Water temp is 58 right now (my house is cold at night) went out and bought a couple kinds of test kits. Unfortunatly our pond store does not open till April 1st. Went to petco, and wal-mart, I got both test strips ph,nitrate,hardness, alkalinity, ammonia and a drop one tests ph, high range ph, ammonia (NH3/NH4+) nitrite and nitrate. Both these kits are for freshwater aquariums, will they work??? Don't know how much ice I can get off that side of the pond, still pretty thick. Tommorow and Mon. (I'm off) are going to be warm so that will help, I don't want to stress whoever might still be alive to much.

[Jackie Ramo]

If you can hook up the garden hose you can melt the ice with that. Use a bit of dechlor. My ice is melting quite quickly today. But get a glass of water out of there for testing before you do anything else. Room temp water gives the most acurate results.

Good that he made it and good that the temp didn't rise to quickly. By tonight we should look at putting a heater in if the house is real cold. Want to get him up to 72-75 in the next few days.

[marla]

Didn't get to hose the pond, had to leave and take care of the mother-in-law, just got back home. My husband said he saw like six of them but they all swam away to quick to see anything, hope that's a good sign. It was sunny and the ice thinned out quite a bit, maybe tommorow I can get out there. I think we'll take the mother-in-law for church and brunch but no other plans. Is the drop kit or strips I bought that are for aquariums ok to use to test with? I did bring in two more 5 gal buckets of water just in case I had more sick fish so they are warming in the basement.

[Jackie Ramo]

Yes, the test kits are just fine. Most of us use the aquarium ones. often cheaper than if it says pond on it but the tests are the same.

Well good to know that the fish are up and about. Had to bring in one of my own today... must be spring!!

Did you swab your guy? Did you see any redness or sores, did his gills look good.

[marla]

Tested the pond water I brought in today both with drops and strips
Ammonia- drops looked 0ppm/strips looked closer to .25ppm
Nitrate 0ppm both drops and strips
Nitrite- 0ppm both drops and strips
pH- drops 7.6 or more
ph (high range) drops 8.4-8.8/strips 8.4
hardness strips-150
Alkalinity- strips-120
the QT fish doesn't act alot better, just kind of hangs there occasionaly swimming, water is 60-62. the gills seem fine, he has redness under mouth area and downwards. He also seems alot less colorful then when I brought him in, that's bad I suppose.

[Jackie Ramo]

Definately bad. Sorry but so is the redness. Warm him up more to start. No matter what warmth is better than most meds. Can you post a pic. Is where he is red where you removed fungus or is it under the skin viening or blushing you can see?

Water looks good and that is the best we can do tonight.

[marla]

Happy Easter Jackie, and thanks for all your help. The gold fish was alive this morning barely, and by the time we got back from church and taking the mother-in-law for brunch and groceries he was gone :( . I feel bad but hope the others are ok. We went out the ice is still a good 6 inches deep on that end of the pond. We did see a shadow and my husband dug and we did find a koi frozen in the ice :( . I assume it's been there a while no color left to it and somewhat decayed. Could this be the start of my problem??? Still can't see the others if they come out in the open and see us there back under the ice in a flash. My husband tells me I have to be patient, if they move that fast they can't be to sick. Hopefully between the rest of the afternoon and tommorrow's warmth I can get the ice off. Again thanks for all your help. Did my ph seem real high, is that because the water is so high, should I lower it somehow? I'm determined not to give up and get some new koi when the weather warms up. Is there a way to prevent this in the future?

[Jackie Ramo]

Marla, Sap is most often a secondary infection and a very quick killer especially of small fish. This is the time of year for it to move into any small injury on the fish and take hold. It doesn't take over a pond like parasites and if two or 3 fish have it, I'd be looking at the entire system and maintenance practises. Usually it is one fish so the rest should be ok especially if they are up and swiming around fast enough to hide. Mine are barely moving.

We both need a bit more patience, mom nature will melt that ice in another day or so.

The fish frozen in the ice may be a sign of more problems but probably not the cause of many since your water tests ok. Rotting fish give off ammonia but it is slow at these temps.

[marla]

Thanks, everyone mentions to dechlor, when adding water is there a ratio to this, or just as on the bottles, is it still necessary if you use well water? Yeah mother nature better hurry I can still walk on that ice!

[Jackie Ramo]

You should not need it with well water but I have heard of well water having an ammonia content so test it and see. This testing tells you exactly what you are adding to the pond. If the pH is higher or lower sometimes well water is low in oxygen and should be areated before adding.

If your well water tests perfect for your fish then you can do a water change in confiidence knowing you are only adding benefits to the fish. Myself I have city water which isn't bad but sometimes the ammonia amounts because of chlorine and chlormaines is 1%... not a bit of use to lower ammonia levels in the pond.. so dechlor is necessary.

Also you should have some dechlor on hand, simply because it binds fish ammonia as well as city additives. If the filter is cycling a dechlor or often called a binder will get you and the fish over the hump.

This is my fault as I never thought to mention that the fish in the tank needed some dechlor to bind the ammonia he was giving off. I just do it so automatically I never even think of it. Even the one I broght in with pond water got a bit of dechlor added to bind his ammonia. In your fishes weakened state this may have been enough to push him over the edge.

[marla]

Here we go again, the last 2 days I've noticed one of the large shubunkins, swimming slower, today I took him out, at the base of his body where his tail starts he has the white fuzz stuff. also he has some scales sticking out on his belly not many and a couple on his sides. Should I treat him the same, warm him up, salt him, iodine him. also after yesterdays rains the water is no longer clear, is that due to the rain or something else. The water I took out of the pond is tinged green. I'll test, again, Mon. all was well with tests.

[marla]

Water temp is 50 all water tests are fine, I added some dechlo to the bucket not salt yet, am setting up the 20. here are some pics also, ok files to big I'll have to fix that.

[marla]

try againhttp://img.photobucket.com/albums/v729/grandmavis/2003_0419fish0003.jpg

[marla]

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v729/grandmavis/2003_0419fish0001.jpg

[Jackie Ramo]

Marla, welcome to spring fish care!!

Yes, I'd do the same as last time. Iodine on the fuzz and warm with salt. I can't see scales sticking out in the pics but a couple are misalined but may always be that way.

As for the pond it may be a bit of runoff or a start of the dreaded green water.

bTW, I noticed that the towel the fish was on didn't look wet, this will remove his slime coat so a wet towel or bubble wrap is a better choice.

[marla]

Thanks again Jackie, I did just the same, the towel was wet but not soaking. When I iodined him and didn't even rub hard but some scales in that area came off with the slime, is that bad?? I feel dumb and useless. We leave in the morning for Ohio for the weekend. if the water gets up to 60 or so today should I turn on a heater. Hoping this one makes it, he was a bit costlier, but I don't want to be a two time fish killer.

[marla]

I have a stress coat product for the aquariums should I put that in also?

[Jackie Ramo]

I'd not add anything else except the salt at this point. Stress coats can sometimes coat the gills. When handling the fish did he had a good slime coat?

I'd wait til morning to put the heater in, let him have some time at one temp. Then warm him to 75, may set the heater lower. They often heat higher than they say.

[marla]

Thanks Jackie, I know it's not a koi, but I hate loosing any and if I'm going to get more koi I want to know how to care for them so I don't stumble to often. Fish is swimming around slowly, (likes to stay by the air stone) tail fins are quite red streaked, his color is still good. So what did you mean by misalined scales? Is that something commen? The water is at 62 already, nice and sunny here today. The water from the pond however does seem kind of cloudy and green tinged, more so then the last time it was very clear. I'm leaving tommorow morning around 6am for the weekend for a wedding, do you think it wise to do a partial water change with the tap water in the morning or not? My son is going to come in to take care of the animals so if you can think of any instructions I could leave for him that would be helpful. You are a God send girl.

[Jackie Ramo]

6 am!! You're a brave woman!!

Yes, I would do a water change and dechlor the water. Also if possible leave a couple of buckets of water for you son, add the dechlorabd salt, and just let the sit. He can take some water out and put some in and not worry about dechlor/salt and how much etc. The water will also be close to room temp so as to not drop his temps. If you don't have a cuple of buckets use a rubber maid tub and have him do a 15=20% change out. Reminds me I need to go and change out some of GG's water..

Make sure your son understands that the fish must remain covered so he doesn't jump.

Don't worry about the pond I am sure at this point it just the normal spring green up. Unless you've had runoff from rain...

[marla]

ah yes, but Columbus OH is a good 10 hr drive and we're taking the 88yr old mother in law. So that's tap water I'm changing out with not pond water right? Just making sure. and I should heat tommorow right? Thanks again and I hope you have a nice weekend, looks like our weather there will be nice.

[marla]

should he also NOT feed him?

[Jackie Ramo]

No don't feed him and yes to everything else. You could start heat now. That way you can check to see if the heater is working as set, or not...

Have a good time, and have a dance for me. Weddings are fun.

[marla]

Thanks for everything, I owe you a couple :smile: . I'll let you now the results of everything when I get back. Cross your fingers for me, it'll be a long weekend of wondering.

[Jackie Ramo]

The bill is in the mail :lol: have fun, don't worry.

[marla]

Hi
I'm back, and I should have worried. Sometimes my son can be so irresponsible :mad: . He read my note and understood it, but was so busy with work, he ran in and out and fed animals, and forgot about changing the water on the poor fish :mad: . So anyway the fuzz is back, the fish is not as active as when I left, and the back fins look thinner, don't know if that is worse or not. I did a 25% water change (also added just a 3 more teaspoons of salt above the 1/per gal) and removed the fuzz, used a soaking rag this time to scoop him out and replace him. Also am raising the temp it is at about 65, must not have gone up as much as I thought it would have when I left. I blame myself I should have tried to get a hold of him a few times :mad: , but was so busy myself. I'm off work tomorrow so if I need to run and get anything for him it'll be easier. Hope I did the right things tonight? If I need to do anything else and some one answers I'll check back later otherwise I'm crossing my fingers through the night, I could kick myself!

[Busy B]

Sorry Marla....kids sometimes don't get this gist of it all...you're back now and will be able to keep an eye on things.

[Jackie Ramo]

Give him good warm water and salt. If you have medicated food you may want to feed him that. See how he is in the morning. Definately warm him up to 78.

[marla]

Thanks again. Still warming, I don't have medicated food, but I will look for some tommorrow, any special kind?

[Busy B]

Daughter picked up MetroMeds for hers...and then there is MediGold...

Goldfish connection forum has the specifics for each brand and which is better to use depending on the illness.

[Swamprat]

Let us relax.................
Treat with Potassim Permanganate at about 6 grams per 1500 gallonzzz.
That would be 1 level teaspoon per 1500 gallons.
Begin there :wink:
Mom ? Jackie ? agree ? Ya better :lol:

Get the water warm... if you can ?

[Jackie Ramo]

If the fish was in the pond, I'd probably agree but he's inside in a tank. Harder to dose PP in a tank.

Always sound advice Rat but I'm also not sure that all ponders are at a comfort level for PP.

[marla]

Morning
water temp is up, he's more active today. Sending pictures of both sides, they are not the best through the glass, could I have what they call tail rot also? Is there a different approach for that? Should I change water again or add more salt or meds? Or will the fish just die?

[marla]

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v729/grandmavis/2003_0423wedding0041.jpg

[marla]

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v729/grandmavis/2003_0423wedding0028.jpg

[Jackie Ramo]

Poor little guy!! Yes, it does look like fin rot.

I'd pull him out and put some iodine on all his fins. Do not get it in his eyes or gills, this is a one time treatment not repeated... well not for a week anyway and not at all if he heals up.

Its hard to see in the pic but his fungus spot looks better.

[marla]

I'm really getting depressed with all this, all I wanted was a nice easy somewhat carefree pond, or so that's how it was explained. Today I went out to the pond (haven't been out since Thurs.) and found our only remaining koi on the bottom, barely alive(tried the same routine with him but he suffered just a few more hrs.), one pec fin gone but a bone probably and his poor body just covered with fungus. This fish was swimming around fine Thurs. We went to the pond shop and they gave us a med by TetraPond called DesaFin to use, in case it was fin rot so the rest won't get it. Before using it my husband tried to shop vac the pond, he did just down past the first level. My back has been acting up again so he wouldn't let me help, I just pulled out leaves and trimmed back plants and that was enough, I'm going to have to stretch it out tonight. We started the biofalls and added the med as directed, its for Bacteria, fungus, and parasites, the guy said it's what they use in the tanks with their clients fish and ponds. The rest of the fish look fine, but that's what I thought Thurs. too. As for my QT guy, he was swimming around this morning but this afternoon took a turn and is half sideways just hanging there. I did do an iodine rub last night when I did the water change thought it would be ok seeing as it had been like 4 days. My stomach is in knots, and these are just small fish, don't know if I can do this if they get big I feel useless and dumb. Sorry for the whinning but just needed to vent. I do appreciate the help I just feel like a failure at this.

[Jackie Ramo]

Trust me Marla, we all feel this way when our fish are sick. I sound calm talking about my two but I am not. Mind big fish are easier in some respects has they have more resources to draw on than a little fish does.

I think Graham and I have roundly trashed the installers who say it is no work to have a pond. It is if you don't have fish or treat them as replacable I guess..

I've used Desa Fin with success in the past. Follow the instructions and one hopes that is the last of the Sap you will see. Sap is an oportunist killer and it eats right into the fish, very very nasty. I've lost fish to it myself. The good news is it prefers cold water so hopfully the water warms up some more as well.

Don't forget that these stressful times will be more than made up for this summer when you can actually sit out and enjoy the pond. I know about the back, was streched out last night myself. Lucky you to have a hubby that lends a hand. Mine does as well if I need him. Not sure about the vacuuming part though... :grin:

[marla]

Well, he was barely hanging on this morning, and gone when I got home from work. Chalk up another one. I'm begining to think I should just put them out of their misery immediatly. I'm praying that's the last and the DesaFin we put in the pond might help prevent anything else, but I'm going to be watching real close. My husband told me I just need to forget and put it behind me there's lots of ponding time yet. Thanks again for the help, even if on this end it's not working, I'm glad yours are doing better.

[Dave in Innisfil]

From what you've described, it sounds like could have "SAP" too, and will use the recommendations to try and save the sickly fish tomorrow. I don't think the girlfriend's gonna like our new 70 gallon coffee table tank, but looking at what these fish are worth to replace, I'm hoping she'll understand. I've lost over a dozen this past week, and dozens are unaccounted for.

[Jackie Ramo]

Well sick fish is a sure sign spring has arrived... sad but true

Marla I am sorry the little guy lost his fight. My two are not co-operating the way I'd like either... darn things. Don't blame your son, Sap is a quick killer as it sends hooks into the fish and eats it alive. Very nasty stuff and is always in the pond. Do keep an eye on the rest of the fish. Sap is normally a secondary invader and needs an opening. There may be a problem in the pond we haven't seen as yet. Sorry I'm just trying to be realistic here not pessimistic. Things may just be fine. The rest of mine are good, just the two so far.

Dave, I hate to give you bad news but I'd not be surprised to find out you have a number of things. All can be corrected but it will take time, effort and money... get those water test kits and post the results as soon as you have them, then we can start.