Bickal's Breeding Program

[Jackie Ramo]

Well I like your experience from my chair - you do all the work and sweat and I get to learn from it. Keep them coming!!!

[GregBickal]

Water temp 92F :-?
Sunday afternoon around 4pm.... Ouch. Fry don't seem to mind, but I am wondering what their upper threshold for heat is ? I have plenty of O2 in the water.

[kgt3]

Some Ochiba


Hey Greg,

Is the brown one in the last picture ochiba or chagoi?

[Jackie Ramo]

Greg, Keifer was the one to answer your question not me, but I do think that fry have a higher tolerance than the big guys, needing less o2 to start with.

[GregBickal]

Brown one in last picture is a chagoi :smile: Im liking the scale pattern on that one alot. Its also in the first picture, and then in the 693 attachment. If you want to see larger origional pictures of any of them, let me know.

Who's got a request ? I will bowl up some more tuesday night and take pictures.

[Jackie Ramo]

Oh good pitures. I bet they grew more over the week. Have they been healthy for you? I'm starting my own fry watch today as its been a week since they spawned the first time.

[Busy B]

I'd be interested in the kohak's :wink:

Did you see Maurices's on Bito..

Are you noticing alot of the same...pinkish skin and orange pattern?

[GregBickal]

I see some Kohaku's that have real red-red, but mostly orange with washed out white. I'll try to get some pictures tonight.

[Terri]

cool Greg :-)

[Jackie Ramo]

I think the orange with washed out white is the good ones, real red red fades too soon.

[luke frisbee]

JR,
at this age/size nothing is important except deformities. The colors and patterns are unstable

[Jackie Ramo]

Hmmmm, that's not what you told Terri :frisbee:

Welcome back, did you have a good trip? Did you learn anything?

[GregBickal]

Couldnt catch any pure breed kohaku's last night. I caught some from the crossbreed tank. Red head or red tail, but not to many with good red all over. The one that I give the single picture of could have some potential if the Hi would shrink up as the koi grows and mabye form some steps.

As Luke said, pattern not important at this stage.

[GregBickal]

Here are some darker koi. The largest koi here has messed up gills, and a messed up tail. It is also the same koi in this picture (http://backyardpuddle.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=704). Real shame to have to cull this one. Its made some nice development since the last picture. Compare the two.

The koi (second from left) also has messed up gills.

The one I have my eye on is the one on the far right. Doitsu, and could be Kumonryu.

[GregBickal]

Some group shots... All domestic

[GregBickal]

Here's one I should have culled while I had it in the bowl..... Gill plates all warped.

[Terri]

In the group shots, there are a couple that are interesting. Thanks for sharing the pics Greg :-)

[luke frisbee]

greg,
thanks for the pics. Hopefully this won't happen next year. you are earning your fins.

[luke frisbee]

if you could go catch a couple of 14 inch bass and turn them loss in there, by the time it freezes up you should have two good fish....worth eatin

[GregBickal]

I might not even hatch out fry next year. I might just focus on raising up the ones that dont get culled, and learning how they develop.

Im not happy with the quality of the fry from the Showa female either. If I do breed her again, Im only going to use the Shiro Utsuri males. I wish I had a Shiro Utsuri female instead.

[Jackie Ramo]

Face it Greg, you are addicted now and will raise more fry next year, inspite or because of the problems. After all, what good is a lesson if it isn't applied. :-)

[GregBickal]

Its alot of work and money to bring up that many fry, only to have a very few turn out decent. Decent to an industry standard, which I must meet in order to re-coup any effort.

In the past, I would put all the eggs in my large stream. I would get a hundred or so babies make it to 6" by the end of the season. No work, no food, no money.

Out of those fish, I would usually save the best dozen for myself to grow on, and sell the rest. Never had to cull or destroy any fish. Never had any disease or problems to worry about. It was just fun because each day, you would spot a fish moving that you had never seen before, and only get a glimse. Week after week you try to see it again, as it grows and colors change. Finally at the end of the season to catch it, and say "wow", thats a nice looking koi.

Of course, I would show that koi to people on the internet and they would go "yuck, bickalgoi". So I got some real breeding stock, so I could start producing something that people would take more appreciation of. I think that was the wrong road for me to go down. My motivation for doing that was more for other peoples appreciation than my own.

One of my favorite koi right now is in the Half-breed tank. Everyone would call it a ugly mutt when I post a picture, but I like it, I think its interesting.

Pure Japanese koi have distinct patterns and fall into specific categories, which sometimes makes them look textbook and un-origional to me. Kohakus especially.

Gotta do what I enjoy I guess..

[Terri]

My motivation for doing that was more for other peoples appreciation than my own.

This was your first mistake ;-) When did you come to realize the reason for going through all this? You are on the right road Greg, it's only natural to seek improvement in one's goals... now you just have to have fun doing it. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder, we constantly tell people to get koi that THEY LIKE, not what some article they've read says is "good".

I know you understand that with this hobby comes growth and appreciation for nishikigoi, you found that in yourself when you went to Japan. Chin up Greg, it only gets better :grin:

[GregBickal]

Epifany's come to me frequently :grin:

[Jackie Ramo]

Greg, although I can see most of the time what others see in show koi, that bug has never bitten me. I like my fish for what they are, pets. Dancing to anothers drum gets tiring after a while.

I saw my first fry today, one yellow 3 dark ones. Who knows how many more are in there but I'll doubt if I have to cull them or feed them or nurse them. Just being able to enjoy them and to know that none of my females where bruised or scraped in the spawn. Guessing who spawned what will be my entertainment.

[GregBickal]

I bowled up some of the domestic fry and shot a little digital video. Nothing special in this batch, but figured you might like looking at something (rather than nothing) :grin: The squares are 1" each. This blue bowl is a kiddy sled :-P

I'll try and replace this one next week with a bowl full of good stuff :wink:
http://home.mchsi.com/~bobkoi/P7120055.MOV

[Jackie Ramo]

Looking healthy at least Greg. My guys now look like fish and not fry in just a couple of days and can grab a brine shrimp and eat it even if it is almost as big as them. What worries me is they eat more than one :roll: Each and every one of them has a long poop comining out of them all the time. Eating machines and I only have 8 to look after.

[GregBickal]

You can finally see the wiskers on my biggest koi at work in the aqarurium. His "Fu Man Chu" wiskers. So cool.

[Jackie Ramo]

How old are they Greg? Nancy was asking me when the barbels showed up over at the ADI board.

[GregBickal]

89 days as of today. I think I really started noticing them around day 85. Probably only cause their sticking out. I think they have always had them.

Next year I will try to check fry under a magnifying lense to see how soon I can detect them.

[Jackie Ramo]

Well the 8 I have in a tank have stopped being translucent but I can't see any barbels as yet. Doesn't mean they are not there or developing. The spawning was 2 weeks ago so the fish are younger than that.

They look like little old men with big pot bellies :lol:

[GregBickal]

WATER TEMP 95F :-?

OMG, when I got home friday night from work, the water temp was through the roof. I got the hose running in there asap (50F well water), and did a partial water change. By the time dusk hit, the water was down to 88F.

Ouch, no dead koi, but that is not good. Someone on koivet said at 95F and over the koi start getting brain damage.

[Jackie Ramo]

How would we know if they had brain damage???? never heard of that before.

[GregBickal]

I'll give them an IQ test when I get home tonight :lol:

[Terri]

I'd like to read that thread on KV, got a link Greg...?

Have you contructed anything to shade the ponds? Would help, along with a fountain or TT.. might keep the temp down.

[GregBickal]

Hot Hot is Too hot (http://www.koivetforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=17513&highlight=95F)

I wasent prepared for that heat. Eventually I will have the pools covered with a greenhouse and can have shade-cloth and temperature control.

heat wave is over for awhile. Im gonna keep my eye on it and watch the weather every day.

I am going to set up baki showers inside the greenhouse, but didnt want to do that yet because a coon could nock something over and mabye drain the pond.

[Jackie Ramo]

Even styrofoam floating on the surface will help some what.

[GregBickal]

Heres a picture of one of the bigger ones I caught tonight. Colors not great, but its a fat sucker. I outlined over the square in the picture to give you an idea of size. The square is 1". This koi is about 5".

[Busy B]

That's a nice looking koi Greg! Could stand a diet tho :lol:

[Tamianth]

I seem to recall reading that same post.... Terri I'll see if I can find it for you!

Nice Baby Gregg! Looks like he's eating very well indeed! :grin:

[Jackie Ramo]

Godzilla the fry :lol:

[GregBickal]

What is that fry anyway? Kohaku? If so, is it a culler or a keeper. Looks like fish bait to me. Now if it was a Kujaku, and the blue will come up later, then ok, I could keep it.

They have been eating very good since I started feeding flakes again. Going through 2 cans of flakes a day :( Good think I had a case of them for next to nothing $$$

We will be culling saturday. Should have some good pics next monday.

[Terri]

looks metallic, hariwake ? it's a cull Greg, pattern is crap... but I would wait a bit longer, from the pic looks like there "may" be more yellow to come in which case it's a keeper.

[Jackie Ramo]

Difference in monitors, looks orange to me and I suspect will remain orange, but yes more coming up at the back....

Thanks for the thoughts on flakes, had an uopened jar so tried it, they like them!!! funny to see this huge flake disappear inside this tiny fry, came out again but it did get all of it in !wow!

[GregBickal]

Yes, Its orange. I would say its a kohaku with very weak hi. I sure hope I have something decent in that pond. Could be because I let the yamabuki's spawn with the Showa female.

I grab a handfull of the flakes and crush them in my hand and reduce them to the diameter of a pea before feeding. Seems to work great. Turning them to powder like I did in the beginning was too small. Its definently less work for them to eat than it is pellets that are too big for them.

[Tamianth]

Glad you confirmed the color Gregg, I see yellow going deeper to orange. Might darken in and even out....

I think its wise to wait and see on this one, might have a potential yet. :)

[Jackie Ramo]

I've been feeding a product called first bites, tiny granuals but I think the fry are too big now for them so the crushed flakes seem to work. None of my tank guys are extra big though. Haven't seen the pond guys in a few days.

[Tamianth]

Yup, thats what I got for the goldie fry here also! They seem to like it well also!

Oh, here's that link to that thread Terri.... I'm sure this is the one Gregg was reffering to!

http://www.koivetforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=17513

[GregBickal]

My buddy Shane helped me Cull on saturday. It was too windy and my large umbrella wouldnt stay up so we ended up sitting in the sun (sizzle...).. Next time, I need to get some kind of bench set up, cause stitting on a cement block is certainly not ergonomically correct.

I was very dissapointed in the quality of the Japanese fry. All the fish that had decent colors were all deformed. And as you will see below, nothing but ogons. So many deformaties...

[GregBickal]

This ogon is now about 5". We were not able to catch the other biger one. This on went in to the big pond to keep for a few years.

[GregBickal]

This ochiba is a cull. Messed up gill plates. Dang...

[GregBickal]

This little gin rin Ochiba is a keeper.

[GregBickal]

This little Gin Rin Ochiba is my #1 koi

[GregBickal]

Hariwake

[GregBickal]

Some of the kohakus. I see a couple of culls I missed in the bucket full.

[GregBickal]

It was too hard for us to cull the large group of fish, so we first sorted the koi into 3 groups
1. Light colored ogon (mostly orange ogons, yamabuki, white)
2. Dark colored ogon (chagoi, soragoi)
3. Patterned koi (Sanke, Showa, Shiro Utsuri, Tancho, Kohaku, etc )

After that we culled for deformities. Each of us went over each others tank to cross-check.

[GregBickal]

Separated out any larger koi and moved them to the big pond with my breeding stock.

[GregBickal]

I hope theres at least 1 or 2 nice Shiro Utsuri in here.

[GregBickal]

Some nice gin rin Chagoi in here.

[GregBickal]

Just a few of the culls, there were hundreds. The worst one I hated throwing out was a 5" yamabuki with a crooked head... !wow!

[GregBickal]

Now on to the domestic koi. Much nicer variety, and very few deformities.

Thats all for now folks.

[Busy B]

Gotta love that Ginrin Ochiba...what a nose :wink:

The bigger ones that go to the pond..are those tobies?

Why do you think your domestic have less deformities?

[Terri]

Great pics, thanks Greg for letting us all take this journey with you, it's been interesting to say the least ;-)

How you wade through all those domestics for pics is beyond me LOL

[GregBickal]

Ive got about 3 sizes of fry. The largest 6 or so (I would call Tobis) are easily 5". A couple of dozen medium size (around 3"), and then a thousand or so small ones about 1 1/2". The little ones seem like they havent grown in months. Crowding issues im sure.

As for the domestic fry, the batch that I took pictures of is about 20 days younger than the purebred fry. Not only are they more crowded, but in a pond with 500 gallons less volume, less circulation and filtration, and were fed 1/4 the amounts of brine shrimp and food that the purebred fry got. These fry have grown better than the purebred.

As for the deformities, I thought I had read that Showa fry are prone to that. So if so, the Showa Female is done being a breeder for me. If its not the Showa fault, then its just because of them being inbreed so much by the Japanese, or could be because of the water conditions or paracites.

I probably wont spawn again next year unless I can get some mud ponds. Seeing what Keifer has produced in the mud ponds, makes me realize thats the only way to go. Even then, I will probably only spawn Japanese males with Domestic Females. The tank of domestic koi turned out so much nicer (im so glad I didn't dump them like I was told to do). Im sure i'll hear flack on that comment, but hey, with the setup that I have, I cant really give quality koi a proper growing environment. I would only be able to raise about 100 or so, and proably wouldnt produce anything with a decent pattern at that.

There are some Gin Rin Yamabuki's in those pictures of domestic. Pretty cool looking. I cant wait to see that batch get bigger.

Summers slowly dwindling down here. I am trying to find mud pond space even now. If I put some fry out for the whole month of August and September, I might be able to get some growth and harvest them in October.

[GregBickal]

Ive got a 5" yamabuki that was really nice, that is, until I saw his head tilted to one side. Great, yellow fishbait :lol: What a waste... :roll:

[Jackie Ramo]

Greg, maybe Keifer has an idea if it was the costia that caused the deformaties. sad to see all hose bent little fish. So far none of my pond mutts show any signs of this. Mind I have less than 50 (I hope) so lots of room and maybe the big guys did eat some... or the dragonfly larvae got them.

[GregBickal]

A little yamabuki.

[GregBickal]

I found this kohaku dead. Jumped over the wall when I was harvestnig and landed in the filter drainage pit. Dang shame. Probably the best Kohaku that I had from this years spawning... BTW, this one is from a domestic female Jap males :grin:

[GregBickal]

Another little group of half breeds.

[Jackie Ramo]

Nice to see some healthy ones Greg, sorry about the Kohaku.

[GregBickal]

More pictures for you. I finally caught some of these larger fingerlings from the domestic tank. My motto is, when you are having trouble catching the koi, get in the tank with them and even the odds :grin:

Little domestic Showa. 7 or 8".

[GregBickal]

Nice little Gin Rin Yamabuki. Oh yeah, this one will be staying with me for a few years.

[GregBickal]

A couple of little Shiro Utsuri. First one is a doitsu. More sumi guys, more sumi.

[GregBickal]

Kohaku and Sanke

[GregBickal]

Doitsu Hariwake

[GregBickal]

I like the bottom one in this picture.

[Tom C]

Greg looks like you have a lot of nice looking koi to play with. With that said start culling a lot more. You will be a lot better off.

Tom

[GregBickal]

Chagoi.

[GregBickal]

Doitsu Ochiba?

[GregBickal]

Doitsu something.

[GregBickal]

Ki Utsuri?

[GregBickal]

I am basically moving any koi over 2" from the breeding ponds to my lower pond. That way the little guys can take their time with the pellets.

I will do another big cull in october when I prep for winter.

My seining net needs work. The weights are hanging below the net which lets the net hover about 2" off the bottom. Koi go right under.

[Tom C]

How large are the ponds these koi are in? From some of the pictures you posted a few pages back a lot of them should have been culled. Look at the shape of the heads of some of them. That will not get better in time. As the fish gets bigger you will see that from a mile away. I did a few breedings a few years ago. 99% of the koi were culled. I kept 2 that were cull koi for sure in my eyes. My wife said no, about 6 to 8 months later she said she had no idea they were that bad. Time will show up the koi that should have been culled. The down side to keeping koi like that is, they take away from the good koi. CULL< CULL and more CULLING.

I have to say I do like some of those you posted. Time will tell if you picked some winners. Keep up the great work.

Tom

[GregBickal]

This is the first year of culling for me. Ive never raised enough koi to have to cull before. In the past, my mutt koi never produced these kinds of deformities. Its all part of the learning process for me.

The obvious culls are easy to spot, and we have removed those already. But others are more difficult to spot when they are that tiny. Most of the koi are about 1 1/2" long.

We have done 2 major culls already this season, and try to cull as I spot when I am feeding them.

I have 2 breeding ponds, each are about 4,000 gallons. Too small, but the best I can do right now.

[GregBickal]

I caught a few of the pure japanese fry today.

Here's a 7" ochiba. The background grey and scale pattern is amazing. Sure wish it had more brown.

[GregBickal]

A 5" Hariwake

[GregBickal]

A 7" Yamabuki. I see a little orange shimmi on the left side.

[GregBickal]

A 4" kohaku. Any promise here? Patern on the head is nice. Looks like some more Hi that could come up in the back.

[GregBickal]

Tancho Sanke.

[Terri]

A 4" kohaku. Any promise here? Patern on the head is nice. Looks like some more Hi that could come up in the back. Need a better angle pic, but not too bad... that buried beni should show itself in another month.. keeper for now.

(disclaimer :grin: not a koi judge or breeder, just stating my opinion :frisbee: )

[Terri]

I caught a few of the pure japanese fry today.

Here's a 7" ochiba. The background grey and scale pattern is amazing. Sure wish it had more brown. I'm with you on wishing there was more brown, promising reticulation though! Good shape, good growth.

[Terri]

The little "tancho sanke", me thinks bekko... the beni looks weak on the head. Fingers crossed for you that the spot moves more square onto the head as this one grows... and remains stable.

[Jackie Ramo]

They all look good to me Greg. Must make you feel better to be getting a few that are nice after all the troubles.

[GregBickal]

Not enough to make any money selling, but enough for me to have a few keepers of my own and sell the rest to help pay for expenses. I wont be breeding large scale next year.

[Jackie Ramo]

Well a few bucks towrads expenses goes a long way. Think I will start to sell my fry next year. The big guys need food money :frisbee:

[GregBickal]

Hows this for a line-up... Oh yeah, I got the trick. These are domestic mix.

[GregBickal]

Some more domestic chagoi

[GregBickal]

Domestic Kohaku.

[GregBickal]

Domestic Ki Utsuri.

[GregBickal]

Domestic Bekko/Utsuri

[GregBickal]

Goshiki?

[Jackie Ramo]

Last one looks like a sarogoi to me but then I know nothing of types.

How are the ones in the tank? My tank guys are a third smaller than the pond guys. I'm thinking of moving them into the inside pond now so they don't become totally stunted.

[Terri]

Cool Greg :grin: Love the line up...

[GregBickal]

All lined up and even got the bow, so that was a good photo indeed. That koi is definetly not a soragoi. Its got a white belly and a red tip on its nose. Too hard to tell right now, but I will hold it for a season to see.

[Jackie Ramo]

Thought the red was something in the bowl. I have a bunch of soragoi and chagoi looking fry. The soragoi had a small first spawn so I didn't vac the pond as I didn't see any eggs but she certainly was busy and looks like the dad for most of them was the chagoi, giving me a few silver and brown ones Ochibas?

[luke frisbee]

sell every domestc koi you own...every one.
look at the pics

[Jackie Ramo]

Luke, I may be wrong in this but I think the plan is to sell them... :frisbee:

[GregBickal]

Yes, the plan is to sell them starting next spring (people around here don't buy koi in the fall). I will keep a dozen or so of the nicer Japanese koi to grow on and sell the rest (that is, if there are any worth selling). I do not plan on breeding again next year. I will probably fill the breeder ponds back in so my little girl can have some yard to play sports on. Between the food and the electricity, water changes, paracites, deformities, it just isnt worth trying to raise fry in liner ponds.

[luke frisbee]

Pickle,
Liner ponds are used by Blackwater, and MANY others.
Next year do what I suggested for this year.....breed some normal crossings between your Jap koi Culll them heavily from the get go. AND get rid of ever Domestic Koi

[GregBickal]

Luke, Either your method or mine im still only going to be able to produce several hundred low grade koi. My way at least I have some variety. Frankly I dont think my Showa female is worth breeding.

Mabye I'll try breeding her with only Shiro Utsuri Males next year, and producing only Shiro Utsuri. MAYBE. Be better if I had a Shiro Utsuri female, but I dont, so what do you do.

Look at the results that Keifer has had from switching to mud ponds. I think thats the only way to go now.

Im running 2 pumps, and one 45l air pump (total 3 amps of electricty) to keep my breeding pools going. That resources, and the 1500gallons a week in water changes could be better used keeping my large koi healthy.

Instead of devoting my resources to these fry, I should be devoting them towards my large koi.

[luke frisbee]

AMEN!

Kill all the domestic fry, save ten of each different patternation from the Import koi so you can see what they look like at one year old..and some at two years old.

Shiro U.s are just Showas with really weak hi....so breeding a good showa to a good Shiro utsuri will give you GOOD both....I don't remember your good showa?

Yes toss the domestic adults. give the japs some room to breathe and gather their strength

[GregBickal]

Here's my Showa, and my Shiro Utsuri Males:
http://bickal.home.mchsi.com/koi2004/pb140051.jpghttp://bickal.home.mchsi.com/koi2004/p217003m.jpghttp://bickal.home.mchsi.com/koi2004/p2170033m.jpg
Of course the males look a little different right now, as they have grown and their colors are changing. My well water does funny things to sumi.

As for my dometic koi, I was able to find buyers for about half of them this year. Hopefully I can get the rest sold by next spring. Quite a few of my koi now have healed over ulcer scars and look like cr.p, so they will probably be given away.

This will also make you happy, I will only be overwintering the Japanese koi (and their fry) indoors. Everyone else will get to take their chances under the ice. Now if I can just get my new Japanese style koi greenhouse done in time for winter.

[luke frisbee]

You'll get 'er done....pretty soon you'll have great weather for working outside.

But leave that "showa" outside....the red on that fish will ruin every fish it shows up on.

a big white female would be better than that thing...what else ya get from japan that you could breed to those very dark shiro's

[luke frisbee]

PS every koi you give away means one less you can sell.....if a person has an extra spot in it's pond then he is going to buy a koi....or you can give him one.
Ugly koi make very beautiful fertilizer....and very little else.

[GregBickal]

I was suppost to have a white Ogon from Japan, except it got mixed up and I got a male instead (which didnt matter since it died anyway from the mouth rot). Then of course there was the doitsu ochiba that was female and died from the broken back. I think one of my Yamabukis might be female. The only other female that I have is that Soragoi. I think I might just breed her to the kohauks and try for Ochiba.... Specially after you see this Ochiba that we pulled out of the pond tonight... Oh yeah....

What do you think of this fat little 8" Ochiba (pure jap)

[GregBickal]

A group of Ochiba. A couple in this group need culled because they are deformed.

[GregBickal]

A group of yamabukis

[GregBickal]

Teaching the daughter some koi appreciation skills.

[Jackie Ramo]

Greg the Ochiba looks good to me but Luke will probably eat it :frisbee:

The daughter looks better with each picture.

Now question what is the difference between a yellow ogon and a yamabuki? metallics?

[kgt3]

Even though I have very little time to post anymore Greg, I always keep an eye on your threads. Am really glad to see that u have gotten back into the swing of things. Although there will always abe a market for different grade koi, continue to strive for quality and let some of the quantity pay some of the bills and fertilize as well........Hope this will be a good learning year for us both.

Kiefer

[GregBickal]

I fertalized alot of grass last night !wow!

Im also noticing that individual koi that didnt have deformities during previous cullings have developing them later. "S: shaped tails. Bent up tails. Im wondering if I have some kind of mineral or vitamin deficiency going on.

The very larged chagoi that I posted pictures of so long ago, is now around 9" and its head looks alot meater on one side than the other. It kinds looks like when I hear about koi developing funny from a clockwise only current, but the tank that they are in has 2 currents, 1 clockwise and 1 counter clockwise, so I would not expect to have that kind of problem.

My culling motto is "if it looks suspicious of being deformed, it probably is", toss it and keep going.

As hard as it is to cull koi with nice patterns, Im way past that.

[kgt3]

Yeah, it didnt take me long to get past that either!

[GregBickal]

Harvested some more out of the pure Japanese tank. Here's a few pics.

[kgt3]

Damn Greg, what are u feeding those things. They look almost obese! Chiba's look good. What did u use to produce them?

[GregBickal]

I'm feeding them Rangen 1/8" pellets twice a day.

The only female that I used is a Showa (see picture on post 362). The males were Shiro Utsuri, Kohaku, Yamabuki, and Gin Rin Chagoi.

I like Ochiba's alot. Next year, going to breed only Ochiba's. Do you think it was the male gin rin Chagoi that produced these Ochiba? If so, would I do better to breed him to my Gin Rin Soragoi female? She should be read next spring.

I would like to try and breed for Shiro Utsuri also. I wish I had more choice of females. Dang. I think I have enough yamabukis to last me.

[luke frisbee]

Greg,
These fish have been thoroughly abused and need to be destroyed. You can keep about 5% of them to sell next year, the heads and bodies are so distorted from the conditions they've been grown in that I didn't even look at the fins.....
But seriously i wouldn't sell or save ANY of them...well maybe there would be three or four AT THE MOST that I could keep that look perfect right now.

By Not wasting ANY of your limited Resources during Winter you might be able to condition the fish you have so they don't have all sorts of problems in the Winter and Spring next year.....

Soargoi X kohaku = Ochiba

[luke frisbee]

Are they dead yet? !bonk

[Jackie Ramo]

Luke do not read anything more about my fry... they are much uglier that Greg's and I know you'd want me to thow them all on the grass... a nasty habit btw.

Do you have grass yet or is it still wet there?

[GregBickal]

I will take in several hundered of the best and leave the rest to fend for themselves under the ice. In a 24" deep pond that equates to koicicles.

As for the conditions of the water. The fish in my aquarium at work also developed terrible deformities. Initial Stocking rate of 30 fry in a 30 gallon tank. Culled out 20. Down to 10. All of them have some form of deformity. Funny a fish will be doing fine, and then get sick for about a week. After it comes out of the sick, is is then deformed. Was doing a 5 gallon water change every week.

I think the only way to make Luke happy is just to quit breeding entirely :roll:

[Jackie Ramo]

Greg I have one in the tank that is deformed with only 6 fish in 29 gallons, had 8 and cut them back. None of the 11 I have pulled from the pond are deformed in anyway. The ones in the lotus pots 3 in each pot are very small compared to all the others. I'm also doing a 5 gallon chage a week but think I need to do more as the 6 don't seem to be growing.

[luke frisbee]

Pickle,
all the drugs you threw at them early on...

I think you can breed koi..but you have to do it THE HARD WAY.....
breed one female to two male
immediately throw out half the eggs...that is throw out, not try and save them by giving them any of your limited space but Throw them...on the ground...the ground with no liner and water on it. Got it.
Sembetsu and segregate at 45 days of age.....this will entail setting up five seperate pounds, but the kicker is that you will only be aloowed to keep one fry per 10 gallons of water.... the deal here is that the biggst fry pond gets what you think are the "best" color pattern of koi....and so forth....
the smallest pond, the smallest % of similarly patterned koi.
YOU CAN HOWEVER KEEP THE MINI-POPULATIONS OF FREAKS BY PUTTING THEM IN A POND WHERE THE MAJOR POPULATION LOOKS NOTHING LIKE THE ADDED FREAK POPULATION....Which will let you see how the odd-balls pan out.
breed your best three fish, The three with the best conformation....


And then cull them at 80 days (mark it on the calender, no later...earlier if you like) cut the number in half once again..so now each koi has 20 gallons to its name...70% of the saved koi should be what you think is "the best"... the rest should be large representative populations of what you see as trends but don't think they will be good trends......like "too much sumi", who knows if your pairing throws showas with tons of baby sumi that loose it later on? you won't if you don't keep a representative population....
So now we are down to probably 5000 fry and it has only been 80 days...and guess what, your inability to do make the hard decisions hasn't made them sick or deformed....5000 fry.
Cut 'em by 50% again at 120 days, and cut em again at 200 days...the 200 day cut are the only ones that you should allow ANY to live from...and then only to friends that have helped.

ONE BREEDING , and LOTS of water per koi fry would have made you have a couple of hundred worthwhile fry this year....and you'd have an idea of how your parent's fry morph....You got no idea of what kind of fry any of those jap fish can throw....

I'll make all the decisions for you next year if you can handle it? YOU KNOW ALL THAT I'VE TOLD YOU TO DO SINCE BEFORE YOU WENT TO JAPAN HAS BEEN THE RIGHT THING TO DO.......

So bubba, what ya gonna do?

[Tom C]

Are you running air stones in the ponds? If not do so, you will see a lot less deformed koi. I was talking to a breed here, he said once he add more 02 to the pond the koi do a lot better. One other thing that cause it is over crouding in the pond. If they are not getting enough live food when small this happens. All I can say is what Luke is saying CULL, CULL, CULL you will get better koi this way. Don't get a name for selling deformed koi. I have one of those breeder here by me. People do talk about those people and don't come back once they know.

If you lower your number down to 300 to 400 koi in a 4,000 gallon pond you will see some great growth. The breeder by me hold it at 300 for a 3,000 gallon pond. Most if the koi by next month are 6" to 12" long in one season. He also uses a lot of live food.

I think you're doing a great job with these guy. Maybe Luke want to post some he bred also.

Tom

[luke frisbee]

here's a pic of the hurricane fry that are not as good as the group I turned loose in the lake...it was a total accident as you know...but there were less than five koi with deformities....
the oxygen is needed if you crowd them..it is best just to give em room ...lots of room

[Tom C]

Nice job Luke, when are you going to cull them some more? Why keep koi with no color?

What size lake did the other koi go into? What kind of growth did you get out of them?

Tom

[Jackie Ramo]

Luke, got any pics of the Lake choices?

[luke frisbee]

JR,
when it get's a little cooler I am going to Cull from the Lake and get some pics...one of the "hurricane fry" in there is a 2lb'er...an ugly koi but getting huge...and some goodies too

[luke frisbee]

Tom C,
the "lake" is Lakeluke...the pic was taken of what is left in the 3500 gallon QT...

And I suggest everyone should keep the Solid colored koi IF IT DOES NOT CROWD THE OTHER FRY. The reason is that many of the solid colored fry will develop different colors and patterns as they grow.....some of these have color down deep..and some that have patterns now were solid 3 months ago....and a couple with bad patterns are developing more color and becoming decent patterend...but one thing that doesn't get better is a koi with a deformity....those need to go the day you catch them.

[Jackie Ramo]

Luke, how old are those hurricane fry now? 21 lbs!! Shamu!!

[GregBickal]

I have an Alita 45LPM pump running two 3" airstones in each of the pools.

My water quality appears good, but Im not able to get any of the fry's poop to the settling chamber. It all breaks up and becomes fines. Gets stuck in the hair algae. Settling chambers are bascially doing nothing. Can't have a real bottom drain with fry that small, so I just have a pipe with slits.

This pond is shaped to shallow with too much surface area. Great for O2, but bad for getting junk to the center to drain. I also think the high temperatures could have caused some of the deformities.

I also have the deformities at work in my 30 gallon aqaurium, which has never been treated with a chemical. So its very perplexing.

If 300-400 fry is the recommended stocking rate for a pond this size, then its not worth me even trying to breed without a large mud pond. out of those few of fish, by the time you cull down one season how many are you going to be able to harvest that are worthwhile?

Next year I will breed for a particular variety and cull cull cull when they are a couple weeks old and we'll see what we can do.

[luke frisbee]

you can have a fry a gallon to start with but by the time they are a month old you have to KILL half of them...and half again at 45 days and half again at 3 months.
So in a 3000 gallon pond you can start with 3000 fry and then 1500, then 750, then 350 then 200 and before winter 50.
Good thing is you cans sell the fry at 3 inches which should be from 350 to 200, and then again the last 150 culls....
Of the fifty you keep over winter you can keep 10 of them in the Spring and sell the other 40 for some real money.