Zoomer, again

[Jackie Ramo]

For some reason Zoomer just isn't co-operating. His fin has grown back quite a bit but then I noticed this afternoon some red at the 'armpits' and into the one fin.

http://jackieramo.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10001/normal_DSCN2440.JPG

http://jackieramo.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10001/normal_DSCN2441.JPG

http://jackieramo.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10001/normal_DSCN2442.JPG


They were not as red as this to start with, a lot of this redness is stress, he also has a very heavy slime coat.

[Busy B]

Oh crap! Your the fish doc...what's your recommendation? Salt?

[Jackie Ramo]

Darned if I know dear !wow!


Water:
Amonia 0
nitrites 0
pH 8.0
KH 120
temp 66F

[Jackie Ramo]

Ok, I've put my very poor scoping skills to work and saw nothing but slime and blood - yuck! Certainly he has fin rot again or still as a bit of his fin came off in the handling.

His gills are stuck together from the slime and this more than anything concerns me. Mind he is still the fastest in the pond and has been eating and behaving normally. Far from death's door but certainly needs some TLC

I have since I had him out, iodined him again and returned him to the pond.

On hand I have salt, PP and proform C.

[Terri]

That empty fish tank you have..? I think Zoomer needs to be moved and heated - salt to 0.1%. Thought of doing a scrape and scope? Something else is up if he's producing extra slime coat. I don't like the "yellow" look of his head, if memory serves Zoomers head was more of a white/bone colour.

Or if you're home tomorrow I can come get him, I have space in the 120gal. Heat over all is what he needs to get over this hump.

BTW I have two dwarf neon rainbows that I don't want anymore... if your betta want's "company" (male and female) - have you moved the betta into the tank yet?

[Terri]

Guess we were posting at the same time... second thought, what about a salt bath then move into nice clean water and heat to 75F up to 78F.

[Jackie Ramo]

The betta is in the tank, so it is no longer empty, I could easily move him out and Zoomer in but Zoomer is now of a size that 20 gallons isn't goin to do it for him for long. I can put him in a rubber maid tub or I can pop another heater into the pond and salt it up a bit.

Or you can come and get him, Your fish, your call.

BTW his head is not that yellow... I had to go back in a look after looking at the pics

[Terri]

You've been great with Zoomer Jackie, can't thank you enough for putting up with him... but maybe it's time he came home (so I can give him an earful!!)

I have to drop Rhyce off in Oshawa around 10:30am so I'll head to your place, have to be a quick visit as I have a shipment arriving later that afternoon. Do you want those rainbows?

[Jackie Ramo]

No problem, I just dropped another heater into the pond, the temp is acutally 70F not 66F but it goes up and down with the heat of the greenhouse. So I won't salt since he's going home.

Sure I'll take the rainbows, will they be ok with dumbfins?

[Terri]

Shouldn't be an issue, the rainbows pretty much keep to eachother and not known for fin nipping. I've had these two for 3 years, quite nice to watch the male chase the female around as he really shows his bright red fins off - no spawning though as conditions have never been right for them(I believe they are more into "flock" spawning than one on one). They've lived with male betta's in the past and I've never has any problems.

[Jackie Ramo]

Well you might as well leave him here as the rest of the have something as well. The orange one was flashing tonight and Tweet is blowing air out his gills... You can come and get them but you have to take Tweet with you :lol:

I have the second heater in there now which will hopefully hold the temp steady overnight. I'll catch another in the morning and see if I can see what it is that is bothering them. In addition they are quite active, more active than usually so I'd say the word irritated...

[Terri]

Well, I can't do that, LOL so you keep them! I'll call you tomorrow.

[Jackie Ramo]

OK, the only thinkg I can think of at present is ich. Have a look at the 3rd pic and tell me if you see it.

I'm thinking that because I cleaned the bioforce filter recently. No matter how hard I try it seems some sludge flows back into the pond.

[Terri]

http://www.fishdoc.co.uk/disease/whitespot.htm

http://www.fishdoc.co.uk/disease/trichodina.htm

http://www.fishdoc.co.uk/disease/costia.htm

With the excess mucus I wonder if whatever it is is primarily in the gills atm? I don't see ICH, I looked and looked - white fish~white spots, go figure.. BTW, posted the links as they have photos(a couple of movies) for comparison.

[Jackie Ramo]

Actually you can see the slime in the 3rd pic it was thick on him and he smelled fishy.... :roll: The enitre greenhouse stank of fish...

Thanks for the links.

[Busy B]

You've been having alot of up and down temps outside....does the greenhouse fluctuate alot too or have you had the heater in it all winter?

[Jackie Ramo]

Busy the greenhouse has a natural gas heater and its own thermostat. I only heat it to 55F but during a sunny day like today it was over 80F in there. The pond has a heater and usually moves a few degrees over night. On really really cold nights we leave the doors open to the house to stop the plants from freezing.

So in the last couple of days the water has moved up and down in temps a bit. Between 64-70F so its not really drastic.

[Jackie Ramo]

OK no one wanted their food this morning... so I'm starting with a water change now and when the water is down will catch another one and see if I can see the problem.

[Terri]

They're in good hands :-) ... but forgive me for feeling helpless atm.

[Busy B]

Put any new plants in or around the pond?

[Jackie Ramo]

Feeling petty helpless myself, can't figure out what they could have got if it isn't ich. That filter was out in the big pond so some may have stayed inside. Zoomer looks worse today. Still emptying the water.

No busy nothing new except the filter cleaning after the fin rot showed up. Just my luck carp pox, fin rot and now this.. Fish they sure do keep you busy :()

[Busy B]

DD says costia starts with red armpits and then moves in to pink pinpricks on the skin...she pays more attention than I do on the health aspect..She recommended a salt bath.

Not much help huh?

[Jackie Ramo]

Well one of the definately has red armpits/finpits?? Waiting for the camera battery to charge. Nothing worse than getting the fish on the table and not being able to take its pic. Hard enough doing it by oneself without extra difficulties. I am going to oil of clove the orange one who was flashing last night and have a good look.

[Jackie Ramo]

OK the big boss is coming to supervise. So I'll wait until she arrives before doing anything. :D :D

[ozzyrockman]

Jackie, Isn't the excessive slime coat and the others flashing an indication that something is hosting off them especially with the excessive slime coat around the gill plates? Are you going to scrap and scope today? Allen

PS according to AP they have a product that will cure all your fishies problems!

[Jackie Ramo]

Yes Terri is here and we are tormenting the fish now :lol:

[Jackie Ramo]

So we are pretty sure it is Ich from what we can find on the scope. Terri has taken Zoomer home as he has developed an infection and I have no antibiotics on hand here if they prove to be needed.

I've finished the water change and have started the salt treatment and will continue to increase the temperature of the water.

[Jackie Ramo]

What a difference a big water change and a bit of salt have made. the fish are noticably more happy even ate a few pellets I put in.

How's Zoomer Terri?

[Terri]

I just took a few pics, Zoomer is settling in, cruising the tank in a "lazy" manner. Temp is 78F and I'll add some salt in a bit(there go my plants *sigh*), I did a 20% w/c before I released him/her.

[Jackie Ramo]

And the dwarf neon says who put the whale in here??? :D

Poor Zoomer, he looks bad.

[Terri]

Zoomer's eaten, and salt is in... approx 0.15% atm. He's coughing up a storm. What mucus he had is now sheding. He actually looks better than he did this afternoon believe it or not. I'll take more pics in a day or so.

The harequin's run from him LOL and my Festivum is not amused!

[Jackie Ramo]

I just added more salt to the guys here. The don't miss Zoomer a bit...nasty things.

[Busy B]

Good thing you live so close...transport wasn't so hard on the little one.

I had ich last winter when the power kept going off...opprotunist little buggers.

[Jackie Ramo]

Forgot to post these yesterday, this is the fish we tormented

http://jackieramo.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10001/normal_DSCN2451.JPG

http://jackieramo.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10001/normal_DSCN2450.JPG

http://jackieramo.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10001/normal_DSCN2449.JPG

[Terri]

Not exactly it's best side !rofl And I think I need a manicure!

How they doing this a.m. Jackie? Zoomer is fine and another dose of salt to be added shortly... he's not coughing as much. Hand fed him :grin: along with the wakin and shubukin.

[Busy B]

And what do you mean by coughing?

Can't say I've seen a fish cough :grin:

[Jackie Ramo]

Salt here is at 0.2 and they are doing just fine. Happy campers even came up to look at me instead of hiding under the plant stand. Well that was before I dumped another load of salt in... they were expecting food :roll:

[Terri]

Coughing, hmmm it's like what it sounds but fish style. It's a way they try to clear their gills, rapid mouth movements - extention of their mouth and flared gills. It's like seeing them when they spit food out but more exagerated.

[BonnieIN]

Glad to hear that Zoomer is improving.

I'm confused (what's new) Zoomer had carp pox? Carp pox isn't supposed to be harmful correct? :unsure:

Bonnie

[Jackie Ramo]

Darn Zoomer had carp pox, then fin rot, now Ich... and possibly and infection.... Terri has fired me as koi keeper and took him home - just kidding!! she left the other two here. :grin:

[Terri]

Zoomer still has pox on his fins in a few places. The fin rot I think will only get worse befoe it gets better... the ICH I can deal with. Now with his mucus coat gone I can see the white spots, mostly on his head and around his gills. Where he lost a few scales is worrying me, the start of infection is showing... :(

He's active in the tank and eating.

Jackie, you are a good koi mum :-) and I appreciate all you've done for Zoomer and his buddies.

[Jackie Ramo]

I was just teasing you girl.... If it wasn't for the infection I would have kept him but he is better there with you for that.

My guys are happy today, the water is 72F but feels warmer...

They ate their orange all up :D

[Terri]

http://backyardpuddle.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10001/DSCF0016.JPG

Notice any difference ... Zoomer's eating my plants!! :mad:

http://backyardpuddle.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10001/DSCF0020.JPG

My Plants!!
http://backyardpuddle.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10001/DSCF0009.JPG

[Jackie Ramo]

He likes spinach!!! and oranges.

Actually his stomach looks redder than before but his tail looks less red... Certainly seems happy enough !rofl

The guys here are perfectly happy, Tweet has even stopped rocking the TT and the little guys are just cruising around as they should.

[Jackie Ramo]

Just to update: Still a bit of flashing going on but not enough to interfer with appetites.

How's Zoomer doing?

At 72F how long do I have to keep the salt in. The papyrus is already getting brown around the edges :sad:

[Terri]

It's been what now, 7 days I think since I brought Zoomer home..? Big imporvement... he's doing well.
http://backyardpuddle.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10001/2005-3-22_02.JPG
A belly shot LOL
http://backyardpuddle.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10001/2005-3-22_03.JPG
True to his name, Zoomer doesn't SIT STILL!
http://backyardpuddle.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10001/2005-3-22_01.JPG
Salt has been at 0.25%, the tank has had 4 w/c's @ 20%/ea since March 16th. He's eating well, although on Saturday he ate nothing. The fin rot has stopped and there's nice clean white edging showing - so regrowth is taking place(I don't think they will ever be as nice though). The spots were he lost scales are improving, I'm not worried about infection anymore - still some slight redness but receeding very well.
No ICH out break with Zoomer's tank mates(but then I didn't expect that to happen anyways LOL)

Jackie, you could lower the salt level to 0.1%, really that's all that is need for ICH(although there are those who would slam me for saying so!) and hold if for another 7 to 10 days - and keep up the w/c's. At 72F, it's a 4-5 day cycle. Honestly I don't think Tweet and the two butter's were really all that effected, atleast not enough to compromise their health much and they do have their own defences at warding off ICH. Zoomer just got the short end of the stick (so to speak).

[Jackie Ramo]

Well their salt is currently at 0.33!!! They think they are reef fish !wow!

Today I will do a major change and lower the salt to 0.2. There was minimal flashing but that could be for other reasons. Tweet is feeling frisky as the water warms. He was chasing the other two this morning.

Zoomer is looking better. I'd not right off the fins as yet. GG has had some pretty grusome damage done to hers and they healed beautifully.

[Terri]

Zoomer is driving me nutzzzz.... he's so hungry that he's mouthing at the wakin and trying to eat the shubby's tail! You aptly named him Jackie, he zips around the tank like a famished shark looking for a feeding frenzy! And he DOES NOT like spinach, atleast not when I feed it to him !rofl Likes water melon though...

I'd love to throw him out in the fish house with the other butter's but he's not quite ready yet... *sigh*

[Jackie Ramo]

Funny my guys have finally decided they like melon, even ate the rind... normally they won't touch it. They are working at the kale leaf now. Tweet loves spinach I figured he taught all of them to like it. Maybe he ate it all.

Yeah darn Zoomer, here there and everywhere :D

Another couple of days and he should be able to go out, Yes?

[Terri]

Going to see how he's faring by Sunday... if the slight redness is gone from where his scales are missing then out he goes!

[Jackie Ramo]

You just don't want to share your Easter chocolate with him.... poor Zoomer :D

[Terri]

http://backyardpuddle.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10001/zoomerApr02-2005.jpg

Well, I did not get a chance last Sunday to move Zoomer. He's going out tonight... He's doing exceptionally well. Catching him out of the aquarium should be.... well fun :roll:

http://backyardpuddle.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10001/zoomerApr02-2005_2.JPG

[Jackie Ramo]

Oh Poor Zoomer, look how sad he is. First no Chocoalte and now out into the garage during a snow storm. Oh Terri you are a mean mom!!!! :lol:

Actually he looks good, even the fins are healing. I still see where he is missing scales.

[Terri]

Oh Terri you are a mean mom!!!! So my kids tell me when they don't get chocolate too !rofl

http://backyardpuddle.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10001/normal_ZoomerApr3-2005.JPG
Zoomer has settle in just fine, ate a hearty breakfast with his butterfly mates.

[Jackie Ramo]

How does the size compare with the ones wintered in the bigger tank? Looks the same in the pics but pics are hard to judge the size of things by.

[Terri]

Zoomer is the second biggest butterfly in this tank, a pretty sanke(not in photo) beats him out by a 1/4" (not including tailfin)

[Jackie Ramo]

Maybe Zoomer had to grow fast so Tweet wouldn't eat him :lol:

The Orange One is bigger than Zoomer or was. I'll have to cut down their food :grin: