Ebson salt & Gh

[Peg]

I can't remember were I saw this posted but it said you could use Ebson salt to raise your GH. Is this true ? Also if Ebson salt is salt based will it not also raise your salt content in the pond. Or is it that so little is needed (I think it said 1 Cup per M. will raise it 60 points) that it does not effect the salt in the pond. Gh is low, so I was wondering if this really works.
Peg

[Terri]

what's your GH?

[Peg]

Hi Terri, The gh is sitting at 60 while kh is 120. I have to add bs with each water change to keep it there, and Ph is 7.8- 7.9
Peg

[Jackie Ramo]

There is a thread at KV epson salt along with calcium chloride??? as epson salts alone can raise the pH above 9 even with baking soda.

[Peg]

So how is the best way to raise GH without raising PH. Ph has been stable & I don't want to mess with it. Or should I even worry about it
Peg

[Terri]

....don't try to fix what ain't broke :) you're numbers are fine


http://www.yumekoi.com/articles/april_2003.pdf have a read :)

[Jackie Ramo]

A gh of 60 is not terrible, means you don't need a water softener. Mine is 100 which is good. Feed them more shrimp tails for calcium or maybe that yogurt Terri is promoting :)

[Peg]

Ok I'll leave things alone. "Feed them more shrimp tails for calcium or maybe that yogurt Terri is promoting". OK I think I'm missing something. Just throw in SHRIMP TAILS WHOLE ???? And what's this about Yogurt. So :confused:
Peg

[Jackie Ramo]

Pay attention to the other threads Peg.... yes whole shrimp tails, heads whatever fish love it. Krill is basically tiny whole shrimp

[Terri]

I am not promoting yogurt as a koi food source... let's get that straight !

[Jackie Ramo]

lalala lalala lalala :phfft:

[RickF]

There is a thread at KV epson salt along with calcium chloride??? as epson salts alone can raise the pH above 9 even with baking soda.It is not that Epsom salts will raise the pH above 9, it is that Epsom Salts will not prevent bicarbonate from allowing the pH to go above 8.3. The Mystery Thread in the Best of Koivet goes in to great detail about why this is true. The bottom line is that bicarbonate is an incomplete buffer. It will prevent pH from going below 8.3, but by itself, it will not prevent pH from going higher. This is where GH, and specifically Ca++ concentrations come into play.

If you are using baking soda to raise KH, then at a pH of 8.3, most of the "carbonate" is in the form of bicarbonate (HCO3-). When the pH goes below 8.3, the bicarbonate picks up a proton to become H2CO3, which quickly becomes H2O (water) and CO2 (carbon dioxide). The CO2 gasses out of the water, and the pH is still 8.3. When the pH goes above 8.3, the HCO3 gives up a proton to become CO3--. As long as there is much more HCO3- than CO3--, the pH will remain at 8.3, however as the CO3-- increases with respect to the HCO3-, the pH will drift upwards. When most of the "carbonate" is CO3--, the pH will be 9.6. Thus, baking soda will always prevent the pH from dropping below 8.3, but by itself, it does not prevent the pH from going higher.

If there is Ca++ in the water (which would cause a high GH), then as soon as HCO3- becomes CO3--, the Ca++ and CO3-- combine to form calcium carbonate (CaCO3), which is not very soluble and precipitates out of the water, leaving only HCO3- in solution, and the pH stays at 8.3. Another name for calcium carbonate is chalk.

This gets us back to Epsom salts. While it is true that Epsom salts will raise GH, what it is adding to the water is Mg++. MgCO3 is much more soluble than CaCO3, so high concentrations of CO3-- can build up in the water, and the pH can go to 9.6. Both Mg++ and Ca++ are important to the overall health of the koi, but only Ca++, when used in combination with baking soda, prevents the pH from going high. Epsom salts does not cause the pH to go high, it just does not prevent it from going high.

[Jackie Ramo]

Thanks Rick, I appreciate you keeping me on the straight and narrow.

[Gatekeeper]

:bump2: Old thread, but Peg's question is the exact one I need answered. Person at rec.ponds.moderated has KH of 300 ppm but a GH of 0 ppm. Is this possible, and what to do about it? TIA

[RickF]

Due to changes at KV, the relevant parts of the "Mystery Thread" I referred to above have been condensed into this thread (http://koivetforum.com/index.php?topic=951.0).

Yes it is very possible that a pond can have a high KH and a low GH. KH is the measure of buffer capacity, and GH is the measure of divalent ions. A buffer is formed by any weak acid and its salt. As long as the salt does not contain a divalent ion (e.g., Ca++, Mg++, Fe++, etc), there will be a KH, but no GH. Baking soda (sodium bicarbonate - NaHCO3)is a good example. The weak acid in that buffer system is carbonic acid (H2CO3) which forms whenever carbon dioxide is dissolved in water, and the salt is sodium bicarbonate. Since there is no divalent ion, there is no GH.

It is also possible to have a high GH with no KH. If you add Epsom Salts (MgSO4) or calcium chloride (CaCl2) to distilled water, you will raise GH, but there will be no KH, because the corresponding acids Sulfuric acid - H2SO4 or hydrochloric acid - HCl) are strong acids and do not form a buffer when mixes with their salt.

If the Ca++ comes from calcium carbonate (CaCO3), then a buffer can form and you will have a measurable KH and GH, but calcium carbonate is barely soluble in water, so neither value would be high, but both would be measurable.

[Jackie Ramo]

Welcome Gatekeeper and Hey a big wave to you Rick. In to save the day just in time again, thanks.

[Gatekeeper]

Thanks Jackie & Rick,

So the suggestion to give is to add Epsom Salts (MgSO4) or calcium chloride (CaCl2)? I believe the later can be purchased at a "pool" store.

[RickF]

Thanks Jackie & Rick,

So the suggestion to give is to add Epsom Salts (MgSO4) or calcium chloride (CaCl2)? I believe the later can be purchased at a "pool" store.

The usual recommendation is to add equal amounts by weight of Epsom Salts and calcium chloride. Both Mg++ and Ca++ are important for fish health, but only the Ca++ is important in completing a bicarbonate buffer system.

Epsom Salts can be bought at most drug stores or supermarkets on the ailse with the laxatives. Calcium Chloride can be bought in stores that carry pool supplies. In areas that have winter, some ice melt products are calcium chloride, but you need to read the labels carefully. Some ice melt products contain sodium chloride, potassium chloride, or urea. You do not want those. You only want the one that is 99% calcium chloride.

GH does not need to be high. An undetectable level is not good, but 80 to 120 ppm is enough.

[philly]

Thanks Rick for the info, I will get a small supply just in case it's needed one day. :yup: