What is your diagnosis process

[Terri]

I asked JR's permission to post this here, some might remember his series of posts at KV regarding this topic... those are buried somewhere over there and didn't take off too well. Anyways, he's posted this again over at NI, so for those who do not frequent that board I thought I would bring it here.


What is your diagnosis process
Posted by James P on 3/11/2005, 9:35 am
( I previously posted this in 'the other parish' but it got little attention. I still think it a worthwhile conversation for the beginner and lurker so I will post it here on NI)As we approach THE KOI SEASON, after a long winter, we will surely see many struggling with their koi. Hopefully this post will get the minds going BEFORE a battery of compounds are dropped in the pond!

What is your diagnosis process?
I’d like to start this conversation by making what I think to be a reasonable statement-
We can’t treat a problem until we know what the problem is.
There have been many attempts at alternative thinking however! One is that, a problem exists but is unknown. The thinking is, it is “likely” parasites or bacterial problems or nitrites etc. so a shotgun approach of chemical cocktails will surely set things right! Water quality crashes and some deaths are often the result. And this, in turn, has three possible outcomes-1) the hobbyist leaves the hobby in disgust. 2) The hobbyist lives with chronic pond problems for about three years and THEN leaves the hobby. The hobbyist eventually finds “a better way” and begins writing articles entitled “ What is your diagnosis process”!
Another approach often practiced by professionals with varying degrees of success, but not usually a wise approach for home ponds, is the prophylactic approach. In this case, there is nothing wrong, but because it is a certain time of year (or week, in the case of the PP crowd!http://images.boardhost.com/emoticons/wink.gif) chemicals, water additives, dips, baths, sprays etc., must be applied BEFORE something actually goes wrong.
In both these cases we see- dealers who indeed have to be ahead of problems. New hobbyists who don’t know what else to do in the face of koi dropping like “ proverbial” flies. And those who have had a struggle, or possibly a previous wipe out, and are just plain panic prone at this point.
And we took up this hobby for RELAXATION!!
So in that spirit, I ask again- what is your diagnosis process?

Well, I think we can all agree that first we need to get a chair, a glass of wine or beer (I think best this way!) a pad and pen and sit down to observe the koi. Divide the page in half and place two headings:
THE FISH THE WATER

Just relax for 10 minutes and observe both the fish and the water and list those things of concern- things that are not quite “normal” or VERY abnormal!
THE FISH
1) Are they swimming normally? In schools exploring the pond for tidbits and curiosity’s sake? Or hiding in the corner? Are they sitting on the bottom? Are any individuals off by themselves and sulking? Are they gathered at the top and mouthing the surface? Are they “hanging” at 45 degree angels head down, near the pond bottom? Or are they at 45 degree angles, head upward, near the surface? Are the koi rubbing themselves on any “handy object”? Are they flashing? Are they breaking the surface of the water and shaking their heads? Are they observed twitching their fins as if being irritated by something ? Do they seem to be constantly be “chewing” something/nothing? Do they constantly blow bubbles over the gills and out the gill plate opening?
2) Are the fins and skin clear? Or is the white ground color red. Have the koi lost their luster? Is the slime coat healthy or dull? Is the slime sloughing off the fish? Is the abdominal area red, near the vent? Are there any “red pimples” forming on the koi’s body, especially on the side or peduncle area? Are the fins showing a white margin? Or are the fins frayed and torn? Are their streaks in the fins? Are the fins covered with white spots or opaque blemishes? Are there “blisters” in the fins?
3) Are the other body parts normal? Are the eye’s cloudy or bulging? Are the gill plates held tight or are they protruding? Are the gill plates moving fast or slow? Is the body swollen? Is the abdomen swollen? Is there an asymmetry to the koi, a bulge? Are the bodies thin and the eyes sunken? Is the white ground yellow or streaked with red veins? Is the nose and head yellow or deep tan where it should be white?
4) Are the koi eating? At all? Somewhat but not normally? Are they eating but spitting out the food as they descend into the water column? Are there floating feces on the water surface?
5) Are there gross abnormalities present? Ulcers? Look carefully! Many times they are on the underside and lower jaw of the koi. Are the ulcers clean and exposing muscle but are non bloody? Or are they messy and very bloody- like a fish scaler has been run over an area of the koi? Are the gills lifted out of the gill plate ( like a phone book that has been dropped into a bucket of water and then dried out and put back in the drawer!) due to swelling? Signs of dropsy in more than one individual? Patches of slime turned white or cloudy? Bend backs or spines? Kinks in the tail spine? Jaws “frozen” open?


OK ! Time for another glass of wine as the notes on THE FISH are complete and we are free to move onto
THE WATER----
JR

[Busy B]

Lays it all out doesn't it?

Thanks Terri for grabbing it.

[Terri]

Diagnosis part II- the water

Posted by James P on 3/12/2005

What is your diagnosis process? Part two THE WATER

While still in the observation and “sipping” mode, study the condition of the water--

1) Is the water clear? Is the water green? Slightly green? Has the water become cloudy recently? Has the water taken on a “thick” look? Is the water yellow?
2) Is the water surface “shiny”? Is the water surface opaque and showing a slick or film floating on it? Are there bubbles near the waterfall or along the edges of the pond? Count how long, in seconds, it takes for bubbles created by the airdomes or air stones to pop- is it more than ten “ Mississippi’s”? Are the bubbles more of a foam raft than individual bubbles? Is the foam/bubble mass, yellow or white in color?
3) Are there any signs of waste buildup on the pond bottom? Dead algae being public enemy number one! Fish feces a close number two (pun intended!) Are there any leaves decaying in corners or nooks in the pond rockwork? Had blanket weed appeared recently (more on this later)? Are there any runoff possibilities, during a good rain, from the garden mulch, treated wood or new rockwork?
4) Is there any waste build up in the filter and on the filter bottoms? Is there any odor coming from the sump/vortex when you flush it? It should smell sweet, like topsoil. And NOT like the Boy Scout camp latrine in July! Are there foam rafts in the filter?
5) Are the koi behaving differently in this pond water at different times of the day?


OK enough observation, and no more beer or wine! Next, A HISTORY of the pond and maybe some chips or pretzels? JR

[Terri]

:grin: Busy


I think we sometimes over look what we are actualy "seeing" when we are sitting by the pond enjoying our fish. New hobbyists are at square one, most often they don't realize something is wrong until their fish are sick... even though the signs were there - they just didn't know what to look for.

I don't know who said it but I've repeated this to numerous new hobbyists...
Take care of your water and your fish will take care of themselves.

[Jackie Ramo]

Also there is a difference between looking at your fish and observing your fish. Before sittigng down and enjoying my fish I stand at the edge and observe them. Did they all come to see me, yes I count them as one or two can be hidden in the plants. Even after they have been fed I watch to see if they are browsing around hanging with each other, how they swim. I have a good view of the pond from the upstairs window and often just pause there to have a look, this way I can see how they are behaving when not stimulated by the thought of food. I'm on the look out for a fish that is off by itself or down at the bottom. I might not see this if they hear the back door.

[Busy B]

There's more Terri!strut for you to grab...


Any insight on to which heavy metals you don't want in the pond?

[Terri]

Diagnosis part III- the history
Posted by James P on 3/12/2005

HISTORY After careful observation the next step would be to focus on the recent history of your pond:

Has anything changed that might be associated with the abnormal observations you have recorded.
1) any new fish added?
2) Have fish grown significantly since last season?
3) Has the filter recently been cleaned or disturbed?
4) Have any chemicals recently been added?
5) Has there been a large amount of rain lately?
6) Any new construction around or in the pond ?
7)Any trees sprayed, grass or pond plants fertilized?
8) Any major water changes lately?
9) Can you confirm with the town any change in water treatment of your source water?
10) Any change in diet or feeding routine- amount or food type?
11) Anything else done to the pond in recent days?
12) Any predators observed lately ( winged, two legged or four legged?)


If nothing is helpful in reviewing the general recent history of the pond, then let’s move on to TESTING ( this gets more “hands on”, I’d better order a pizza )

JR

[Terri]

Diagnosis part IV - Testing

Posted by James P on 3/13/2005

What is your diagnosis process? Part Four
TESTING

So we have our notes after observing THE FISH and THE WATER. And we may or may not have zeroed in on a theory based on a review of our pond’s recent HISTORY. But we will not KNOW what we are treating for, for sure, until we confirm our suspicions with some research. It is important to say that 90% of all problems are water quality or parasite related so everyone really should have a microscope and a half dozen basic water quality tests. And of course, the trigger for parasitic infestations and bacterial infections is stress. Stress, in most cases, brought about by water quality issues! I think you can see where I’m head’en---

THE FISH- TESTS

1) Examine the condition of the slime coat. It should neither be excessive or absent!
2) Select at least three fish with the greatest symptoms and do skin biopsies. This is a simple scraping of the skin and/or gill with a plastic cover slip. The best areas being the area in front of the dorsal fin and the sides, especially just behind the head and gill area. The area behind the pec fins and the tail tube also will yield flukes. Observation in step one would have revealed anchor worms, fish lice or white spot on the fins but since you have the koi up close, check again. Look over the belly well and look for signs of ulcer beginning as small red areas.
MICROSCOPIC EXAM- Start on the lowest power and adjust the light- not too bright or the light will pass through the smaller protozoan’ bodies and make them invisible to the human eye. You are only looking for general movement at this point. Just a survey for anything living.
When done, examine the sample of slime coat on a higher power by beginning at the top of the slide and move right as if you were reading a sentence. When you get to the end of the slide, move down and then scan the slide from right to left. Repeat until the entire slide has been checked. It is important to realize that many parasites set the stage for bacterial infections, especially flukes and tricodina so make sure, if the sample is positive for parasites that you also develop a contingency plan for dealing with aeromonas or pseudomonas infection. It has been my experience that the vast majority of aeromonas infestations are driven by parasites. So, at least prepare for this possibility with fresh antibiotics and antiseptic solution.

THE WATER

In truth, the water tests should be done first. I say this because bad water quality and over crowding are usually THE stressor that causes the numbers of parasites to explode. And also because, a koi can only “tell” you it’s sick in a few basic ways. I mentioned these behaviors/symptoms under OBSERVATIONS. Because these are such general symptoms, sulking, not eating, flashing etc. They can easily be both water quality and parasite/bacteria driven at a point of course- but not always both! In treating these things you may not care initially. But to assure that these underlying (maybe linked and synergistic) problems are ULTIMATELY eliminated, you need to know which came first- “the chicken or the egg”. This is where TESTING comes in- A greater understanding of the dynamics involved that lead to the problems at hand.
So part of TESTING, as it pertains to proper diagnosis, is about eliminating theories and possibilities. Sometimes determining what “it isn’t” is as valuable as determining what “it likely is”. At least in terms of sparing the overall pond environment unnecessary chemical treatments. After all, avoiding going down wrong roads and blind alleys is what this exercise is all about!
So what do we test for first? Ammonia. Then nitrite, to determine the function and condition of our biofilter.
Next pH to eliminate pH crash and buffering issues.
At this point, I get a little “nosey” and check oxygen, ORP, nitrate and alkalinity. This gives me a bigger picture view of the general condition of the water and also evidence/confirmation of past maintenance practices and stocking realities for that particular pond design. But in your own pond these things are known. Still they might give you more perspective on how realistic your stocking levels are?

At this point in our FISH and WATER TESTING, we should have a handle on 75% of the “possibilities” that can cause the symptoms mentioned under OBSERVATIONS. So treatment can begin. But if the water checks out perfect, the ORP & oxygen are high, the pH stable and no parasitic infestation/ulcer/finrot were found, then more testing is required. From here, heavy metals, stray electrically changes, pesticides, and poisons etc all need to be ruled out.
This is also a good time to mention “personal problems”. We are most interested in population diseases in our ponds. Things that lead to threats of wipeouts and general depopulation dynamics. Individual health issues, such as kidney failure, heart attack, internal tumors and liver disorders are beyond our intervention in almost all cases. And from an economic and practical aspect, will likely remain that way. Unfortunately, euthanasia has its place in our hobby.
But there is still a lesson to be learned from periodic individual deaths. The closed system environment is very hard on koi over their lifetime. Gill damage from chlorine, parasitic treatment, DOCs, metals, low level organics etc, all take a toll. Food of the wrong type or food fed the wrong time of the year, also effect the liver, kidney, reproductive organs and heart over time. If koi seem to die periodically but all of similar symptoms, tests can be done by professional pathologists to determine the organs involved and hopefully shed some light on the long term health risk. In the same light, more professional water quality testing for inorganic compounds/metals in the water main is a worthwhile expense if lingering and disturbing long-term symptoms are observed.

Well I just finished the last slice so I need to get some Rolaids--- Next stop--- TREATMENT.

JR

<snip> " In today's world we usually unconsciously see ourselves as consumers looking for direction from a higher authority or a seller that has an obligation to us, the consumer. That is OK to a point but in the end, a pond owner needs to be a biologist, an engineer, a chemist and a vet.
As part of this apprenticeship, we need to become keen observes of normal behavior and proficient with test kits and the ability to interpret those results.
80% of the time, when I talk to people on the phone or the net about fish dying and ponds doing poorly, the first sentence out of their mouths is - “ my fish were doing great and the water tests perfect!”. Well obviously that is not the case as SOMETHING is wrong or the fish wouldn’t be dying! Short of virus, the vast majority of health issues are due to stress. Stress can be delivered by many circumstances and further fed by water quality issues, excess treatment and parasite explosions.
Koi sitting is usually the beginning of GAS due to change- parasites, bacteria levels , changes in pH and temperature, increases in ammonia, nitrite or nitrate, or a ‘hot’ water change ( hot meaning too much change-temps, pH metals, chlorine , chloramines).
AFTER you eliminate the obvious as a cause ( parasites, bacteria, chlorine, ammonia/nitrite, heavy metals etc) your job is finesse the fish back into top condition. Light salting, small frequent water changes and less feeding can often turn them around in 48-72 hours." <---end>

[Terri]

Diagnosis part V - Treatment

Posted by James P on 3/13/2005

What is your diagnosis process? Part five

TREATMENT

I would leave it to others to post the compounds, doses and regimen for treating parasites and bacterial infections. What I would like to contribute however is a bigger picture view to treating koi in their permanent environment – your pond.
After you have gone through all the work of observing, reassessing changes and testing, it is going to be VERY tempting to want to believe that a simple diagnosis can be solved with a simple treatment. O, that it were so!

I described the dynamics of a parasite infestation earlier. The water quality drops, the koi is stressed and the parasites explode in numbers to exploit the opportunity given them. Same with bacteria. Aeromonas, as mentioned, is ALWAYS present in our ponds. It is only a few virulent forms that are true deadly pathogens. And in those cases, quarantine will eliminate them from gaining entry to the pond. Nope, the facts are that Aeromonas Hydrophilia, Aeromonas Sodria and most forms of pseudomonas are normal residence of our ponds. It is when their numbers are very large (associated with poor water quality) and/or our koi are operating very debilitated immune systems that these bacteria become a problem. So trying to “kill” the bacteria is a superficial answer. Fine in a dealer setting, but wrong headed in our situation. In our situation all TREATMENTS should be on a two tiered level. First, to reduce or eliminate the immediate threat and second, to CORRECT the problem that is causing the epidemiology to begin with. If this is not done then problems will arise again and again.
JR

[Terri]

Busy,...
trace metals, such as copper, iron, zinc, fluoride, and cobalt, etc., are important in minute amounts but can be toxic to fish at higher levels. Even low levels of copper can be quite toxic and fish will suffer - one reason I'm not fond of meds that contain copper - copper leaching into water through pipework is another issue. Iron I believe would have to be quite high to be toxic to our koi. Lead is another I don't think woud be good. I did have a data sheet saved about this but I can't find it at the moment...

I think for the most part we do not have to worry about elevated levels..., contacting your local water supplier for a detailed analysis of heavy metals in your source water is pretty easy, and I think having your water tested is important if you are using well water.

[Terri]

Well, I still can't find the one I had but I found this chart:
TABLE 3 Suggested water-quality criteria for aquaculture hatcheries or production facilities. Salmonid quality standards with modification for warmwater situations. Concentrations are in ppm (mg/1). (Source: Modification from Wedemeyer, 1977; Piper, etc al. (Larsen), 1982)

Upper Limits for Continuous Exposure and/or Tolerance Ranges
Ammonia (NH3)0.0125 ppm (un-ionized form)
Cadmiuma0.004 ppm (soft water < 100 ppm alkalinity)
Cadmiumb0.003 ppm (hard water > 100 ppm alkalinity)
Calcium4.0 to 160 ppm (10.0-160.00 ppm d )
Carbon dioxide0.0 to 10 ppm (0.0-15.0 ppm d)
Cholorine0.03 ppm
Copperc 0.006 in soft water
Hydrogen sulfide0.002 ppm (Larsen - 0.0 ppm)
Iron (total)0.0 to 0.15 ppm (0.0-0.5 ppm d)
Ferrous ion0.00 ppm
Ferric ion0.5 ppm (0.0-0.5 ppm d)
Lead 0.03 ppm
Magnesium(Needed for buffer system)
Manganese 0.0 to 0.01 ppm
Mercury (organic of inorganic)0.002 ppm maximum, 0.00005 ppm average
Nitrate (NO-3)0.0 to 3.0 ppm
Nitrite (NO-2)0.1 ppm in soft water, 0.2 ppm in hard water
Nitrite-nitrogen 0.03 and 0.06 ppm nitrite-nitrogen
Nitrogen Maximum total gas pressure 110% of saturation
Oxygen 5.0 ppm to saturation; 7.0 to saturation for eggs or broodstock
Ozone 0.005 ppmpH6.5 to 8.0 (6.6-9.0d)
Phosphorus 0.01 to 3.0 ppm
Polychlorinated biphenyls (PCBs)0.002
Total suspended and settleable solids 80.0 ppm or less
Total Alkalinity (as CaCO3)10.0 to 400 ppm (50.0-4.00.0 ppmd)
% as phenolphthalein0.0 to 25 ppm (0.40 ppmd)
% as methyl orange75 to 100 ppm (60.0-100.0 ppmd)
% as ppm hydroxide 0.0 ppm
% as ppm carbonate 0.0 to 25 ppm (0.0-40.0 ppmd)
% as ppm bicarbonate 75 to 100 ppm
Total Hardness (as CaCO3)10 to 400 ppm (50.0-400.0 ppmd)
Zinc 0.03-0.05 ppm

a: To protect salmonid eggs and fry. For non-salmonids 0.004 ppm is acceptable
b: To protect salmonid eggs and fry. For non-salmonids 0.03 ppm is acceptable
c: Copper at 0.005 ppm may suppress gill adensione triphosphatase and compromise smoltification in anadromous salmonids. d Warm water situations



How useful this is I dunno but it's a base line...?

[SGray]

Good reading Terri
Sal