V's fish problems

[Vanessa]

I have had all the fish for 4 years, early March they started flashing. Had problems with gill flukes before so I treated with Oxy Clear (potassium permanganate). The water went from pink to clear in less than 10 min and the next day the fish are still flashing so I did a second treatment same results.
Weather is warm so 3 days later I do a complete pond clean out, add the aquascape bacteria and enzymes to the skimmer, enough salt for a .5 reading and some ick guard.
Every things going okay still some minor flashing so 7days later I treat with prazi and add more salt.8, as advised by fish shoppe wait 7 days, still flashing, take 2 fish to the pet shoppe, she scrapes them and find flukes and suggest we go with a dose and ahalf. So I do. 7 days later 1 fish is gulping and gills working real fast, also she has some reddening on her back and fins, call the fish shoppe and they recommend Tricide-neo dip and test water. I picked it that up that evening went home tested the water, high Amon.1.0 and high nitrites .25(never happened before) so I do a 40percent water change and add AmQuel+ . When I went to dip her the next day. She is still doing alittle gulping but I notice more fish have red fins and you can see little blood viens on them. So I dipped the 6 worse looking ones, no one is flashing, the 1 fish gulped that evening about 4 times never saw her do it again all day.
Today no one is gulping 1 fish flashing(1 i didnt dip the first day) Dipped the 6 plus the 1 new 1 that was flashing. Everything quite See the 1 fish gulp 4times in 10 minutes didnt do it again all day. Call the fish shoppe recommends Melafix for the reddening fish,Did a water change salt at .4 Amon.0 Nit0
Wonder what I will find tomorrow, in 4 years I haven't lost a fish I have pic's ,trying to figure out how to make them 100 pix. Any suggestions, Thank you V

[NaturesCall]

My first thought is go do a different shoppe. They seem to have sold you everything under the sun. YOur koi are stresses from all the med's and chemicals you have added to your pond.

Let's see
potassium permanganate
aquascape bacteria and enzymes
prazi
salt
AmQuel+
Tricide-neo dip
and now Melafix ?

Wonder why they are stressed?

[NaturesCall]

You were dealing with flukes. Prazi was all you needed until the flukes were gone. From the sound of it something happened to your biofilters, which account for thepoor water conditions.

Tricide-neo is only needed for ulcerations...do any of your fish have ulcers or fin rot?

do regular water changes until your salt level is at .15 it's too high.

the fish that are gasping...indicates breathing problems. Could be from the flukes. I would like you to inspect the gills if you can. gently lift the gill plate and see what they look like. they should look meaty red.

Forget the Melafix. Your goal should be to get the water in pristine condition until your biofilters kick back in. Water changes for now. cut back to 25% every other day. and don't forget the dechlor.

Stop feeding your fish for a week. Believe it or not, eating can cause stress. Also did you know that 70 percent of the ammonia a koi releases excretes from it's gills? The fish will be just fine. This will also help the filters until they can handle the extra ammonia.

last but not least, can you get any extra air into the water? add an air pump and an air stone.

Did I miss anything?

Walt

[Jackie Ramo]

I think we should slow down on meds for a while. No melafix which will coat the already stressed gills.

I thought OxyClean was sodium percarbonate not patssium pergaminate... haven't read the label but....

I think the pond cleanout knocked the filters back.

Walt and I are posting at the same time here :4eyes:

[Vanessa]

Thanks for the responds, haven't fed them for 2 days only 1 has a ulcer. Not 1 that was flashing or gulping, I dipped her anyway.

[NaturesCall]

Thanks for the responds, haven't fed them for 2 days only 1 has a ulcer. Not 1 that was flashing or gulping, I dipped her anyway.
How bad is the ulcer? Can you post a picture of it? How long has it been there. What have you done so far to treat it?

Walt

[NaturesCall]

I thought OxyClean was sodium percarbonate not patssium pergaminate... haven't read the label but....

I think the pond cleanout knocked the filters back.

Your right jackie, it is. Roddy Conrad just did a write up on it. He used it to clean up some string algea. another person used it and id knocked his Ph way out of wack. Here's his Writeup on Sodium Percarbonate (http://www.koiphen.com/forums/showthread.php?t=53618&highlight=OxyClean)

Venessa, were you dealing with string algea?

[Vanessa]

I have a picture, it is a new wound, I dabbed it with Peroxide after her tricide dip, what concerns me more are the the red veins all over .
Haven't figured out how to insert a pic yet I am working on it

[Jackie Ramo]

V, you can email pics to me if you can't figure it out. Its under manage attachments, scroll down after hitting reply.

I would have dabbed before the dip or not at all. I'd use iodine over HP as well. First it is stronger and also is easier to control as it doesn't foam up everywhere.

Red veining is often stress or nitrIte related. Certainly the fish have been through a lot. Why not let them rest for a couple of days. What temp is the water? Is the ulcer fish in a separate tank for treatment?

[Jackie Ramo]

[QUOTE=NaturesCall]Your right jackie, it is. Roddy Conrad just did a write up on it. He used it to clean up some string algea. another person used it and id knocked his Ph way out of wack. Here's his Writeup on Sodium Percarbonate (http://www.koiphen.com/forums/showthread.php?t=53618&highlight=OxyClean)

QUOTE]
Yes, Roddy was also posting on Koivet but when I questioned him he has disappeared... a problem with Roddy sometimes.

[NaturesCall]

What did you ask him?

[Vanessa]

The ulcer is on top of her back

[Vanessa]

Here is a pic of the fish before the problems

[NaturesCall]

Hi V,
From what it looks like, would you say it is starting to form a whitish sheen over the wound? If so it's healing. Is the circled area the ulcer?

Looks like an aquascapes pond. all that rock is a breeding ground for bacteria from rotting detrius. It looks nice though. Do they charge you to clean it, or do you vaccum the rocks yourself?


That's a nice looking group of koi you have.
Walt

[Vanessa]

I posted oxy Clean I meant Oxy Clear and I got the spelling for the ingredients off the container so I'm pretty sure it is the potassium stuf. No I am not worried about algea, getting a little build up on the rocks, first I need the fish to get better so I can give 4 away. I know I have to many last fall I gave away 3.
Thanks again I've been worried

[NaturesCall]

Your on the right track Vanessa. Keep us posted. :yup:

Walt

[Vanessa]

Walt,
no her ulcer didn't have anything on it.
They want $800 to clean it, they wanted $5000 to build it and would not use any of my rocks , I live in a river bed, so I did it all my self. Used a sump pump and a pressure sprayer to clean it, it is a lot of work. I do not have a bottom drain, If I remove the gravel what would filter the water and protect the liner. If I had to to it again I would chose something else. House is for sale and I don't want to build a new pond.
Oh you made me laugh Thanks

[Jackie Ramo]

V, I think Walt meant that her ulcer has a start of a white film covering it which is good as it means it is healing. Fish heal from the outside in.By the way, the peroxide swap is a one time thing, don't repeat as you can damage the healing skin.

I have a modified Aquascape pond. If you remove the rocks from the bottom it is easier to keep clean. Parasites love the debris that builds up there. The liner does not need protection unless you used something under the 40 ml.

If the house is forsale then one doesn't want to do to many changes.

[Jackie Ramo]

Vanessa, how are the rest of the fish doing? Did the prazi fix the fluke problem or is there still flashing and gulping?

[NaturesCall]

Walt,
no her ulcer didn't have anything on it.
They want $800 to clean it, they wanted $5000 to build it and would not use any of my rocks , I live in a river bed, so I did it all my self. Used a sump pump and a pressure sprayer to clean it, it is a lot of work. I do not have a bottom drain, If I remove the gravel what would filter the water and protect the liner. If I had to to it again I would chose something else. House is for sale and I don't want to build a new pond.
Oh you made me laugh ThanksThat's the beauty of the way they do business. Create a pond with no bottom drains and stone that need regular maintenance. Then sell you on the concept of them doing the work.

When you move into your new home and you want to build a newpond let us know. We'll be more than happy to give some helpful hints.

Walt

[Vanessa]

Vanessa, how are the rest of the fish doing? Did the prazi fix the fluke problem or is there still flashing and gulping?

I am not sure if the problem is gone, Babi was doing alot of rubbing yesterday so I gave him a dip in tricide. Hasn't done it once today Yet. Today only one rubbing herself that is Dutch, she is the one who got the whole thing started, so she got her third dip in 4 days. Her gills are meaty red, if she is still scraching her self friday, I'll take her back in for a gill and skin scrape, hope the flukes are gone. Dutch only gulps very occasionally 1 time today, I think maybe now she is playing with herself.
They do seem more irritated in the late afternoon, I will check ph then.
Thanks for the inquiry

[Vanessa]

This morning the ph was 7.4 (9am) 3pm it is 8.8 the highest my test kit shows. Fed them once today 1 hand ful for the bunch, If the changing ph is a problem, Whats the fix???
Thanks again
V

[Terri]

Do you have a test kit for KH (carbonate hardness) ? KH buffers the pH, if the KH is low you will have swings.

Do a water change, this should help if you have a good level of KH in your source water. If not then there are other methods we can discuss, like baking soda etc.

[Jackie Ramo]

Terri is right lets test the KH and do a water change. Test the source water its always good to know what is going into the pond.

Once we know the numbers we can then give the best way of dealing with it. Good the flashing is probably just the pH change. doesn't look like a lot but to the fish it is.

[Vanessa]

No I don't have a kh test, I have a gh test it runs about a 10, sounds like I need to get a kh tester. Did a water change Sat, Sun, Mon, to lower the salt
Do I still need to do another, waiting for my biological filter to catch up.
Time to go surf for a tester,
Thanks
V

[Jackie Ramo]

Yes, you need a tester. The KH measures the buffer and your filter is eating up particularily if it isn't fully cycled.

[GregBickal]

I have been battling Gill Flukes for over 2 years. You have to understand the lifecycle of the parasite you are treating in order to even come close to getting rid of it. Gill Flukes are egg layers. If you kill the adults with a medication, there are still eggs waiting to hatch that will just reinfest your fish. Treat once a week for at least 4 weeks when water temp is mid 60's an up. If the water is colder, you have to treat longer. Fluke eggs can survive for months in cold water.

If youre water is dirty, full of dissolved organics, green, poop, etc, that can eat up the medicines and render them less effective. Higher PH can also render medicines less effective.

Find someone who can scrape and scope those fish and find out exactly what is going on.

As for medicines to get rid of Gill Flukes, unless you are an expert with PP, forget about it. Ive had Gill Flukes live throught PP treatments that killed koi. Prazi works and is safe, if you can afford 4 treatments of it. I am using Trichloracide powder now. Its a little rough on the smaller koi, but when your treating 10,000+ gallons 4 times, its the only thing I can afford. Measure those medicines with a Gram scale. Its a must.

[Vanessa]

Went to town to buy a KH test, no one had one and the people I talked to say a swing in PH was natural and won't hurt fish, read some more on line and ordered a KH test kit, It will be here in a few days, I will keep you posted, Thanks again.
V
Didn't play with the fish today it is raining :crybaby:

[Jackie Ramo]

I bet it was a warm rain, ours had white flakes in it.

Keep reading, you are doing great.

[NaturesCall]

A ph swing like the one you had won't hurt the koi it will irritate them. Ph is a measurement of alkilinity and acids in the water. If Your koi are flashing and scoping comes up negative for flukes, then you can be pretty sure it is caused by the ph swing.

Terri mentioned a solution. Adding baking soda to help stabilize the ph to a level of 8.3 I believe. That is until your filters kick in and adjust the water naturally. I don't know how much you have to add. Anyone?

[Jackie Ramo]

I'd start with a cup or 2 a day. I know folks throw pounds of the stuff in but I don't like pounds of anything in my pond all at once. A cup thrown in at the base of the water fall, test the water first, then a couple of hours later. Test again the next day if it is different put in another cup. repeat. I throw in a handful with each water change. Habit more than necessity.

[Vanessa]

Thanks for the help with the Ph problem, should I wait to test the water before adding the baking soda ? Will it alter the results of a KH test (had to mail order tester), hate to see them out there rubbing and stuff, yesterday 4 were buzing around and hitting the sides. They did it for a few minutes then sat on bottom. Have a good weekend, It was 85 yesterday.

[Jackie Ramo]

I'm concerned that it may be more than pH but lets get that done since you've medicated them for flukes already. Yes, add the baking soda.

[Terri]

No baking soda until you can get a reading on the current kH... a base line should be established.

The difference between pH reaction and parasite reactions... pH swing symptoms are usually specfic to a certian time of day and are short lived, parasite irritation happens 'all day/night'.

have you done any water changes?

[Jackie Ramo]

This morning the ph was 7.4 (9am) 3pm it is 8.8 the highest my test kit shows. Fed them once today 1 hand ful for the bunch, If the changing ph is a problem, Whats the fix???
Thanks again
V

With this much of a swing I'd use the baking soda wile waiting for the test kit. Whatever the KH is, 10 or 300, it isn't keeping the pH stable.

Don't worry Vanessa, people have different ways of dealing with things. Terri and I don't always agree but it doesn't stop us from being friends. As walt says this swing won't kill the fish but will make them uncomfortable and stressed.

[Vanessa]

I did a 15 percent water change is all, Did 4 40percent in 5 days to get the salt down hate to do any more, still waiting for the biofilter to catch up from the spring clean out. Can it wait till Monday?. This morning ph 7.8 , by noon 8.8 or more, 8.8 is as high as the PH test measures, so I guess it could be higher. Let me know about the water change.
Thanks
V

[Jackie Ramo]

The water change can wait till Monday since you have been doing a lot of change out.

Do you have a lot of algae in the pond? Lots of submerged plants often called oxygenators?

[Terri]

Questions I was just about to ask Jackie... and one more - Do you run any aeration in the pond?

The addition of baking soda at this point is your call Vanessa. If the pH swing is a trend to follow then the most likely reason is Low KH.. but not always, this is why I am of the opinion to wait and get a base line reading for your source and pond water. I will consent that 1 cup or 2 is't going to 'hurt' anything,... just a band-aid.

[Jackie Ramo]

Terri, I was thinking about giving some relief to the fish who have already been sick and treated, may be sick again and don't need the added aggravation of a pH swinging that far.

[Vanessa]

The water change can wait till Monday since you have been doing a lot of change out.

Do you have a lot of algae in the pond? Lots of submerged plants often called oxygenators?
No I don't have any additional arreation, I have a 5' stream and waterfall.
In the summer I ad a spitty.
Just coming out of winter, I have 2 canas, 3 bunches of water lilys and a 6" by 2' strip of hyacinth. All the border rocks in the water are green, thats alot the pond is 3 levels and each level has a border to keep the river rock in place.
Hyacinth is making a slow comeback this year I think it is the salt, never had it that much in there before. I like 60 percent plant coverage it in there in the summer to help regulate the water temp as the temps in the summer are 100+ in the day and low 60,s at night. Pond is in full sun from 9am to 2pm. Is the plant coverage a good idea?
Thanks again.
V

[Jackie Ramo]

None of that sounds like it would contribute to such a large swing in pH. Plants can affect the pH algae especially green water or large crops of string algae can really make the pH bounce.

[Jackie Ramo]

How are the fish doing now?

[Vanessa]

The same, a little more flashing. Still waiting for the KH test kit. I wanted to take a couple fish down to the pet shop (I'm sure the added stress of that won't be good)after I tested and treated the water if needed I haven't added any baking soda, did a water change. Hopefully the kit will come today.
How is bullet and tweet, and the weather. 90 here today, rain and snow on the way tomarrow.
Thanks for keeping up on me
V

[Jackie Ramo]

I'd take the fish for the scrape and scope anyway. Nice to have the service available, many folks don't have that luxury.

Bullet is getting fatter and I fear she and old Tweet may spawn in the inside pond :eeeeek: He keeps bumping her belly from time to time She rocks the TT stand and nearly tips it over... Wait a couple of weeks I tell them.

Elf is giving me some grief but he's a big stong boy and hopefully the sunshine today and the next few days will warm the water. Temps in water yesterday a balmy 45.1F

[Vanessa]

Still no KH test kit. I got tired of watching them flash so I took the flashiest 3 down, no flukes of any kind. So what is the deal?, I will try harder to give some away seems over population may be the big problem.Glad to here everything has turned around for your fishes hope the weather includes lots of sunshine for you.
V

[Vanessa]

While having the fish scoped the only problem we could see as the cause of the flashing was amonnia levels, my tester 0 their tester .25. My aquascape filter mats are 2 years old, I was thinking about replacing them their suppose to last 5 years, is there a better alternative then their mats ? I've got someone coming next week to take 4 fish so that should relieve the overpopulation problem, hate to see any leave, i've had them 4 years,part of the family now.
V

[Jackie Ramo]

Between the ammonia and the pH swings that is enough for them to flash. Did you add any baking soda?

I've used the AS mats and they are pretty good. Matala (sp) are supposed to be the best. Lots of mats to chose from. But if your mats are in good shape I'd not hurry to replace them. They may need a good cleaning with the hose.

[Vanessa]

Between the ammonia and the pH swings that is enough for them to flash. Did you add any baking soda?

I've used the AS mats and they are pretty good. Matala (sp) are supposed to be the best. Lots of mats to chose from. But if your mats are in good shape I'd not hurry to replace them. They may need a good cleaning with the hose.
Yes I added a box of baking soda, I saved a gallon of water to test before I added it, can it still be KH tested? I'll test the pond and the water source too.

Besides getting rid of some fish, not feeding the fish what other quick and affordable way can I filter the water for ammonnia?

[Jackie Ramo]

Oh certainly it can still be tested, it will hopefully test higher.

A pretty way to add filtration is to make a Tickle Tower, called TT. Mine is a strawberry pot. Very effective But adding any kind of filtration will help the ammonia and water clarity.

http://jackieramo.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10001/normal_DSCN7415.JPG

[Vanessa]

Did the kh test, the before the box of baking soda is a 7
Water source 7
Pond currently 9. it is raining still about an inch of rain.
Will the kh change much day to day, morning to night?
What do these results tell us and specifically whats the fix if needed for my 1000 gallon pond?
What all goes in the TT?
Thanks Jackie, couldn't sleep worring about the fishes.
V

[Jackie Ramo]

Simply, the kh measures the buffers in the pond water and these buffers are what keeps the pH steady. Most people keep their kh at 120 but many keep it higher. 120 is 7 drops by my test kit.

Inside the strawberry pot is bioballs and scrubbies, yes the kind you scrub pots with the plastic ones. My husband redrilled the hole in the bottom of the pot so the hose could fit up it. I use lava rock on the outside as it looks better than blue and yellow scrubbies. It has its own pump and prefilter.

[Vanessa]

Jackie I got a tetra test and it states for each drop of testing solution=1dh and that 3-10dh is recommended,mine were 7-9 so do I have a KH problem,or should I be looking for another solution for the flashies. No parasites, I got another ammonia test kit and both read O for that and the ph still swings from lowest to highest it will measure. I test at between 8am and noon.
Dutch has damaged some gills under her fin from flashing, they are healing already. I need to stop the flashing, I gave them very little food yesterday and none today.

[Ian]

A KH of 7 is good and would only be worried about it 4 or less. Your KH should be in that range most of the time day to day but will slowly go down as the system will use it up. If your Ph is swinging up and down morning to night that will cause flashing scratching and irregular behavior but only morning and evening in general. At a level of 7 kh I have only seen this with green water as 7 is a good buffer for the PH in clearer water. So a low KH will let the ph go up and down and a really low KH can crash the PH.
Not many other things make koi jump or scratch but the nasties( parasites). To be honest it really takes a microscope to find the parasite of choice and treatment to specific parasite. This enables you to save even the weak fish. Strong fish can take salt at .6% with pp treatments for four day straight and finalized with fluke treatment like prazi. Shot gun treatment as some would call it leaving a very high percentage of parasites dead in there tracks. Like I said not for the weak fish! Parasites can take a few months to take down fish usually a trigger like the minute water quality goes down fish start dieing. Water Q stays up and treatment is far more effective.

[Jackie Ramo]

Vanessa, I am not sure why the pH is shifting so much if you kh is 7 drops....each kit measures differently so not sure about yours. But if it says 7 to 10 drops is good then I would say the kh is ok.

The fish are still in the pool/tub right? or are they back in the pond?

[Vanessa]

Most of the fish are in the pond, only the worst 2 in quarinteen tank .
Ian they test negative for flukes with scrapes and a microscope., no visual for anchor or lice, water is crystal clear with algea growing on the border rocks, no string algea, All water quality test good, salt at .2.
5 fish are moving to San Diego the middle of next week, since they are parasite free I feel it will be okay to let someone take them.
Maybe it is all stress related from the pond cleaning to the prazi treatments, tricide dips,trips to the pet shoppe for the test & 10 large hungry koi in 1000 gallons
I am open to any suggestions
Thank you
V

[Jackie Ramo]

They've been through quite a lot. Maybe rest and good water and a bit of tlc is all they need.

[Vanessa]

What do you use for algae control? For the first 3 years I used Aquascape SuperCharger and it work great, Last fall it bearly put a dent in it and I was adding it weekly instead of monthy.
The algea is starting to pile up on the rocks and the string algae will be here soon.
Got a call from my friends in San Diego they are coming Sunday for the fish, last summer coyotes got 2 of 3 of my geese, they took the remaining goose and gave her a good home, I gave up the battle with the coyotoes, seems nothing will detour them. (6ft fence with hot wire)
I'll try not to look at the fish, it bothers me to much to see them in distress. Have a good weekend.
V

[Jackie Ramo]

Algae will diminish and grow depending on nutrients. There are many different types, some good some not so good and some down right terrible. Rehoming some of your fish will help as will adding more filtration. The TT's are great for giving clear water.

[Vanessa]

Sunday 5 fish went to a new home, did 10% water change added declor., later that after noon Dutch is flashing like crazy and jumping around the pond like her tail is on fire.
Monday am. most are flashing Dutch still jumping. test water Amonnia .25, nitrte 0 GH 4, Ph 8,KH 5, salt.3.
Inspect Dutch eyes are sunken in. I will do a water change but the sunken eyes is a new symptom plus much more on the frequency of flashing and jumping/gulping for her, she is eating.

Please Help :crybaby:

[Jackie Ramo]

Sounds like costia to me. Costia is hard to see on a scope you need 400x while flukes are bigger and you only need 100x.

Proform C is one product for costia. Fluke meds won't touch it.

[Vanessa]

I had a .8 salt level for 2 weeks wouldn't this kill costia, do you think preform c or formalin for this.
Thanks for you help, I will re-evaluate in the morning, see if I can find a koi vet, All suggestions are greatly appreciated.
V

[Jackie Ramo]

Sunken eyes and jumping and skimming across the pond are all costia symptoms as is a white film over areas of the fish.

Terri may have other ideas on what steps to take. If the pond is salted at present then proform and formalin based products are out. Costia is a fast killer once it gets started.

[Vanessa]

Sunken eyes and jumping and skimming across the pond are all costia symptoms as is a white film over areas of the fish.

Terri may have other ideas on what steps to take. If the pond is salted at present then proform and formalin based products are out. Costia is a fast killer once it gets started.

The pond salt is a .3 is that to high for a treatment? How many treatments?
Thanks yet again
V

[Terri]

Costia is pretty much fish specific, meaning only one or two fish in a pond might be effected while the rest are fine - only a microscope and mucus sample will tell for sure who's got what.

While it's best to treat the whole pond formalin is out because of the current salt level - so an alternative method...

If you can obtain some PP (potassium permanganate - crystal form) then dosing the pond along with salt is fine.... BUT you must (can't emphasize this enough!) must increase aeration/pond circulation while the PP is in use. Badeye just added to his thread regarding his use of PP, hopefully he will post back to Jackie's question on his dosing method. Koivet.com has infomation regarding PP use with fish, I suggest you have a read if you can. Note that fish who are 'severely' weakened by Costia (or Chilo, or well, pick your parasite) may not survive treatment... but they would not survive anyways if you didn't take action to treat.

Another alternative (and not one I would personally do) would be to isolate the effected fish (any koi that show the symptoms Jackie mentioned) to a treatment tank (minimum 150gallons) - no salt addition, and treat with ProformC following the directions given... again you must add ample aeartion/circulation while treating. To repeat, severely infected fish may not survive treatment, especially if their gills are damaged by the parasite infestation. In the mean time do several partical water change outs to the pond itself to bring the salinity level down below 0.1% then treat the pond with ProformC as well.

Note, if a fish with Costia dies with other fish present the Costia will 'migrate' to the next available host.

Vanessa, you should contact the people who took your other fish and let them know what is happening - they might have taken fish who have parasites (assuming Costia).

[Jackie Ramo]

Terri offers good suggestions.

You now have 5 fish? I'd be tempted to catch them all use the tank method Terri suggested and bomb the pond with PP while the fish are being treated with proform C in a non salt environment.

If the eyes are sunken the fish is very sick.

[Vanessa]

I already contacted the people that took the fish, they are in quarenteen and are waiting for me to update them
I see where I have 3 options
1.Find a koi Vet fast and get a proper Diagnosis if possible
2.Do enough water changes to get the salt down(could take a couple days), then treat with ProFormC
3. Do the PP treatment

I am going to try to do #1 first and if I can't find one I think I will get going on #2., Only one place local to buy the stuff and they charge double of what you can find on the internet.

So do you think that is the best plan?
All fish are very active and eating.
Could it be water quality or PH swings
Still trying
V

[Vanessa]

I have 3 HiFin banded sharks where should they go during all this?
I have the Jungle pond oxy clear, is that a suitable PP treatment and what about the sharks. I have a 300 gallon holding tank and the only areation a tickle tower type thing. 7 large koi and 3 baby koi.
open for ideas

[Jackie Ramo]

I have no idea about the sharks. I am also not familiar with the PP product you are using. I use straight PP.

Any pump spilling water back into the tank will do for areation.

The sunken eyes convinces me that it is more than pH. See if a vet will scrape and scope for you. does you local pond place offer this service?

[Terri]

The Jungle product is made for aquarium fish (weak solution),... it won't touch what you need to deal with. You need the real deal, and it's only shipped HAZMAT (hazardous material). You might be able to find it local if you have a)a good pharmacy, or b) a farm supply/feed store or maybe even c) a pool supply outlet.

Being that you are in CA you might want to contact Mystic Koi, or go to the AKCA web site and look for a local koi & pond club near you for help.

The catfish are in the pond?

You should invest in a 'large' air pump - not a small aquarium air pump but one rated for handling multiple aquariums or even better for a pond (like sweetwater, alita, airtech, etc - 40L or 80L).

How large is your biggest koi?

If you have formalin that will work. I don't have much faith in ProformC for my own reasons. But if you do not have PP or Formalin available to you NOW, then go with the ProfromC treatment.

[Jackie Ramo]

Here it is Terri. Vanessa we don't have this product. Does it tell you the ppm for the dose?

http://www.drsfostersmith.com/Product/Prod_Display.cfm?pcatid=14440&N=2035&more=1



Use 1 teaspoon per 50 U.S. gal. (5 g/189 L) of water. Dissolve Pond Oxy Clear Powder in water in a quart size container

Can't be pure PP at that doseage rate. Mine gets dosed at 1 teaspoon per 1,000 gallons for a 1 ppm dose, I don't want to do a 20 ppm dose on my fish!!!!

[Vanessa]

1teaspoon for to 50 gallons provides two parts per million -right off label.
The cup to 800 gallons was something else( How to neutrilize with Hydrogen peroxide, don't worry i read it correctly when I dosed the pond I wasn't sitting in the dark like now)

[Terri]

Pond Oxy Clear Powder

Directions: Remove activated carbon during use. Do not use within 48 hours after using water conditioners or treatments.

Use 1 teaspoon per 50 U.S. gal. (5 g/189 L) of water. Dissolve Pond Oxy Clear Powder in water in a quart size container. Then pour the solution throughout the pond, taking care not to pour solution directly on plants or lily pads. Stir the pond water with a paddle or stick until the purplish color mixes thoroughly. Safe to use in water containing both fish and plants. Use during daylight hours only. Increase aeration/circulation for 48 hours after each use to make sure oxygen does not drop to harmful levels. Use once a week if necessary. See the very first part of the directions... this is not the grade of PP we use Jackie, it's been made 'fish safe' :doh: Pets$mart and Big Al's (and I am sure other's) sell this stuff, you can buy it off ebay. It used to have a different name a few years ago, bought some for my aquarium - didn't kill my cardinal tetras so it's pretty mild IMHO. Hell, it doesn't even have to be shipped HAZMAT.

Vanessa, the hi-fin sharks are Cyprinids...? Common name shared with a type of catfish - sorry for the confused look on my face :banghead:

[Jackie Ramo]

Ok so its just a question of doing the math to get the doseage one wants. Just reading a cup to 800 gallons gave me the willies :lol:

V, I'm sure you read the directions on everything. Which is good. If you don't have hydrogen peroxide dechlore will also nutrilize it which is why the 48 hours after water changes. I only nutralize in an emergency. Once its spent its gone the filters will clear the brown.

[Vanessa]

Dutch still alive swimning around okay,
I do have a PetsMart nearby, I will check them out, they don't have a very large pond selection however. So the oxy clear even at the recommended dose won't do it? Label says you can use a double dose but it refers to water quality, nothing about costia specifically
Thanks for the heads up to the AKCA I did look that up and got a phone number for a Koi Health advisor, I will call him at 8am.
If I can't get ahold of the koi guy and I take Dutch back to the pet shoppe any thing I should know to help her get an appropriate sample? Dutch was there 1 week ago and the scrapes showed no sign of any parasites. She took one sample near the gill flap and one along her side.
Thanks
V

[Vanessa]

:-) Yeah the Koi Health Advisor is coming at 1 pm, with his bag of tricks and everything. The AKCA tip was how I found him, I knew they were out there just couldn't find one. Hopefully in a couple of days everyone will be better.
Dutch is very lively(Still Flashing) but shes not belly up.
Thanks again I will keep you posted.
V :yup:

[Jackie Ramo]

That is great news! KHA's can be very helpful. I know several myself but they all live far away. Let us know what he says.

[Vanessa]

Well he scraped and scooped and scraped and scooped and did it some more, couldn't find anything. No flukes, no costia, Gills all meaty red with no damage, so i guess that is good news but it still doesn't answer the problem of what is going on. He recommended bringing salt up to .30 (and here I thought I hurt them with salt at .08) and that I could take the one with sunken eyes to the vet because he couldn't find any thing wrong with her and thought she was to nice a fish to lose.
What do you think?
V

[Jackie Ramo]

I can only say that costia is very very hard to see. Did you take any pics of the fish while he was examining them? Can you get a pic of the one with sunken eyes

[Vanessa]

Dutch is still moving around, eating, looking good, eyes still sunken. So far today no flashing. The KHA came back out today, did some more testing found nothing . Said the fish don't have any slime coat, made it hard to get a sample, and that I needed to continue adding salt to bring it up to .30. I thought I was killing them with to much salt but I only had .08, I did't understand the difference between bringing the pond up to .03 and .30.
He also said that someone currently enrolled in the KHA training had seen that the sunken eyes could be caused by the ph swings.
So it seems the water quality is the suspected culprit, maybe the startup bacteria/algeacide I added to the pond after cleaning never has been a problem before but it is different from what my pond supplier has carried in the past.
Thanks again for all your support, it was very nerve racking trying to find the solution before I had any fatalities.
V

[Jackie Ramo]

I re-read your first post and nothing was said about an algaecide. They can be murder on fish. I'm not sure at this point about bring the salt to 0.3 if the fish have no slime coat. Salt at lower levels inducing slime coat and at higher levels sloughs off the slime coat. They have none to lose.

I'm not there hands on and am not trying to second guess your helper. But it is a question you may ask him. Blame me I can take the heat :grin:

[Vanessa]

I didnt know the new start up bacteria I bought had algeacide in it, the KHA pointed it out.. I will get a picture of Dutch and post it later.
V

[Vanessa]

Here is Dutch now

[Jackie Ramo]

i'm sorry to say that Dutch looks in sad shape. The left eye seems very sunken and the red patches are hard to tell if it is an ulcer coming up or just the parasite damage. Looks the same as I am seeing on my fish. This doesn't mean he can't recuperate. I've seen worse.

You said the gills looked good, red meaty and crisp? Well if the flashing has stopped it is a step in the right direction.

[Vanessa]

No flashing today , the ph didn't swing much today maybe .4 Dutch's 2nd picture, that is a air bubble by her eye. The redness on her back she did that trying to escape the holding pond during spring clean out, I used vinyl siding to cover the pond and a couple of them hit it pretty hard, I will use netting or canvas next time, I think the redness on her sides is from all the flashing, I will watch it closely and treat it if it gets worse looking
V

[Jackie Ramo]

Well if you know what injuries caused it then it isn't a big issue. As scrapes they will heal up quick enough. Some fish are more susecptable to water fluctuations than others. With you kH numbers I can't figure out why the pH is moving at all.

[Vanessa]

2 days in a row no flashing, and no ph swing, everyone eating,
I will keep you posted
V

[Jackie Ramo]

Good news all around.

[Vanessa]

:grin: All the are still alive, coming out to eat ect., not out swimning around as much as usual, I think their still wondering about thier 5 missing buddies(sent them to a new home). Dutch still spending alot of time on bottom, she does come out to eat but with alot more hesitation then usual, when she thinks I am not looking I can see her buzzing around the pond. Her wounds don't seem any better, nor any worse.
Just thought I'd give you an update, Thanks again for all the help
Vanessa

[Jackie Ramo]

Vanessa, consider pulling her and giving her a 0.6% salt bath. It is an easy step and often just gives them the boost they need to heal. I use this often and most times its the only step I need to take.

I'd like to see her swimming with her friends and her wounds healed up by now. What are the water temps?

[Vanessa]

Thanks Jackie I may do that this weekend,Water temp is 72. They all are spending more time hiding then usual, they wait until I leave to eat, before all the dipping and treatment and stuff they rushed over to me to get some food. Do you think that the benefits of salt the bath will out weigh the stress of it all.
The pond salt was at .3 for a week, coming down with weekly water changes.
:banghead: It's been more than 5 weeks, if it were costia would she be dead by now? I hope things get back to normal soon, spawning should begin very soon
Thanks
V

[Jackie Ramo]

I strongly suspect if it was costia she would be dead by now. Sorry didn't read back about the pond being salted. Still netting her taking some pics and having a good look see and her wounds, gills and eye would not hurt. Remember netting a fish is a zen experience not a hunt and chase. You are smarter than them but they are faster.

[Vanessa]

Here are some pic's without netting her

[Jackie Ramo]

Well one picture and one almost picture of her :HAHA:

To be honest, I think she looks worse when compared to the other pictures posted. The wound looks deeper and she looks thinner.

Have her eyes always been sunken like that?

[Vanessa]

You know I wondered about those sunken eyes too, I looked at some pictures of Dutch when I first got her and yes her eyes are sunken but not like they are now. Here is 2 from last year

[Terri]

Hi Vanessa,
Dutch is seriously sick. Do you have the space/ability to set up a hospital tank for treatment? What meds/chemical treatments do you have on hand? How friendly are you with your vet?

Jackie, it may not be Costia but on larger fish it can take a 'long time' to die from the buggers depending on circumstances/conditions, costia kills small fish quickly. Could be Trich or even fluke - with out a scrape and scope it's anyone's best guess...?

[Jackie Ramo]

Vanessa, Dutch is a beauty. There are many koi clubs in California. Find one near you. One of the members may be a KHA and will have a scope and be able to help.

[Vanessa]

The KHV has come out twice to see her, he checked her for parasites twice, she was then clean, it's been alittle over 2 weeks since he has been out, I have a call in to him, he is out of town till Mon, and he is leaving for vacation friday, hope he can squeeze me in. I need to leave town asap, my mother is ill and I need to go see her.
I have nothing but a 300gallon holding tank no filter for the fish, iodine is only med. The KHV gave me an idea of what meds I need. if she is systemic I don't know how or where to administer any shots. would medicated food be enough., What kind of filter do I need to ad to the holding tank? How long does she need to be in there? I figure I will be out of town at least 10 days or 2 weeks. Maybe I can find some one who can pet sit her and treat her while I am gone.
Thank you
V

[Jackie Ramo]

Vanessa, if you have to leave town I'd resalt the pond to 0.3 again. that may be what has been holding things in check. A 300 gl tank for one fish is good, real good but withour filtration and some one to look after her she'd be less stressed in the pond.

Ask the KHA if he can do a gill snip if he makes it out.

If you weren't going away I'd suggest putting her in the tank and shotgunning her if the KHA can't find the bug. A mix of proform C and prazi would take care of just about everything.

[NaturesCall]

Vanessa, if you have to leave town I'd resalt the pond to 0.3 again. that may be what has been holding things in check. A 300 gl tank for one fish is good, real good but withour filtration and some one to look after her she'd be less stressed in the pond.

Ask the KHA if he can do a gill snip if he makes it out.

If you weren't going away I'd suggest putting her in the tank and shotgunning her if the KHA can't find the bug. A mix of proform C and prazi would take care of just about everything.

for the Proform-C usage a stronger dose is needed for Costia. It only has 23% formilin and Costia should be treated with 35% Formilin. If the directions say use 1 teaspoon per thousand, use 1 and a half.

Walt

[carcha koi]

Hope Everything Works Out. I Know It Can Be Frustrating. Lost Half My Fish To That. Hang In

[Vanessa]

:yup:It has been 2 months, All fish are still alive, I gave Dutch tricide dips for a week and medicated food for 3 weeks, she still has a mark on her side where the whole thing started, it looks kinda like a bruise now but a zillion times better,still alittle redness where her body joins her tailfin but 2 months ago I thought the tail was going to come off.
Thanks again for all your support, it meant alot.
Vanessa

[Jackie Ramo]

Thanks for the update. Glad to hear the fish is improving if slowly.