Doitsu Koi

[Terri]

Doitsu, this term is used to describe koi that have a single row of scales along their lateral line as well as single rows running along side the dorsal fin. The most appealing doitsu are those with symmetrical scalation.

It's been mentioned that long-time experienced koi hobbyists often give doitsu varieties a "lesser" value than their normal scaled counterparts - even though doitsu compete in the koi shows against wagoi.

It seems most newcomers gravitate towards these brightly coloured koi… why do you suppose this type is more popular than that of normally scaled(wagoi) koi varieties?

Here's a few examples of doitsu varieties, all female, all over 3 yrs old.
http://canadiankoiandpond.ca/coppermine/albums/userpics/10001/normal_01_b.jpghttp://canadiankoiandpond.ca/coppermine/albums/userpics/10001/DSC0003-2.pnghttp://canadiankoiandpond.ca/coppermine/albums/userpics/10001/622.pnghttp://canadiankoiandpond.ca/coppermine/albums/userpics/10001/203.png
http://canadiankoiandpond.ca/coppermine/albums/userpics/10001/kikisui2.jpg

[Tom C]

A true doitsu for me is a koi with no scales.

Tom

[Jackie Ramo]

Aren't they called Leather Koi???

[Terri]

It's my understanding that doitsu koi are partially scaled or have no scales. With in this group there are "leather" koi(no scales at all), "mirror" (having large scales along the lateral and dorsal), and "armour" or Yoroi doitsu(having scales other than the lateral line and dorsal in a jumbled pattern). Where as wagoi are fully scaled koi(all over the body).

[Tom C]

Yes you are right. When I hear leather I think of someones skin I once dated. She was a sun nut and her skin was like leather. Not soft to the touch like a scaleless koi. !rofl

Tom

[Jackie Ramo]

Touching leather fine corinithin leather... 8-)

I have a doitsu mirror scale fish that will probably end up being scaless, if she keeps losing scales. She doesn't have that many and knocked off a few last spring.

[Wayne S.]

To Terii's question "It seems most newcomers gravitate towards these brightly coloured koi… why do you suppose this type is more popular than that of normally scaled(wagoi) koi varieties?" I would say the average hobbyist does not care about a lot of the finer points of koi quality, they just care about what looks good to them. In some cases the Doitsu look better than similar Wagoi. In my case I like a Shusui over a Asagi. It is harder to breed and raise a very good Wagoi and nice examples are therefore judged with more respect and get higher awards. For many beginers pattern and overall appearance are most important. Doitsu and Butterfly can make a pond interesting - this is especailly true if the average guest viewing the pond knows nothing about koi.
Wayne S.

[Dayleen]

Hmmmm....interesting. My perfect fish just happens to be a Doitsu Showa....does that make me un-educated? I just like the way they look & feel, the way there are no scales to get in the way of the pattern.....i love Doitsu everything and 15 years into the hobby, they are still my favorite but then i like Gin Rin too....ooopppssss!!

[Dayleen]

Oh ya....i forgot....i love Butterflies too ....oh no...my reputation as a Koi dealer is going to suffer now. !rofl

If people paid more attention to what they like rather than what other people tell them they should like, the hobby and showing would be a lot more fun with out the self important snobs that make others think that they are inexperienced or un-educated boobs for liking something that isn't a Gosanke.

Koi appreciation comes with time and tastes change....that's the beauty of the hobby. Not everyone wants the same things in life....thank God!! Personally, i enjoy and keep (almost ) one or two of every variety. I appreciate the beauty in them all. That goes for my first Koi, a (19 year old)pet store special to my most expensive $25.000 US Dainichi Koi.

[luke frisbee]

Doitsu (pronounced "doits" by the japanese) simply means "German" as in deutsch.
There are 3 kinds of doitsu scalations....the MOST desired is the one terri described, and the leather koi is second best...and then there are "armoured-scaled" doitsu (self-described).
the One Terri described is the most desirable by koi nazis because it is the hardest to achieve...those symmetrical rows of scales.
Actually the leather carp look best...but nazis being what they are....

[Terri]

GoSanke may be on top in the hobby and show tanks, but I think that is primarily because they take a lot of effort to produce the quality of todays standards. That doesn't mean the other varieties are any less valuable... I think breeders try their best to bring what the market wants... some specializing in a selected variety.

We hear about normal scaled skin lustre, how the quality of the skin is very important... I would think this is even more imortant with doitsu being that there are "no" scales covering the skin, any little "flaw" would be quite noticable. Colour also seems more vivid in Doitsu, but only because you are not looking through scales to see it... if you look at the heads of normal scaled koi it appears much deeper/brighter than on the body.

[Tom C]

This is the look I like, no scales at all.

http://www.pondpetsusa.com/images/koi/doitsu.jpg

This is another doitsu of mine.

http://www.pondpetsusa.com/images/koi/kikisui.jpg

[Mudsow]

I'm curious, does anyone consider the doitsu koi more susceptible to parasitic attacks and/or more sensitive to water conditions than normal scaled fish?

I only ask because I have a platinum ogon that is doitsu (mirror scaled) that seems to be my canary fish. Either that or it's a hypochondriac :unsure:

I can look at that fish one day and a few of his scales will look quite pink, and blotches in his tail. The next day, he'll be perfectly fine. I haven't pinpointed his problem yet, He can go for weeks at a time without a sign then has a few off days of patchiness, I've been worried that it looks like an ulcer beginning but I've learned to give him a few days before I panic. Then like magic, he's normal again. :confused:

Just wondering if they all have this sensitivity or if I'm just lucky.
Mudsow

[Jackie Ramo]

Tom, lovely fish. One can see why you would like them.

Mudsow, I don't know if they are more suseptable or not. I have a hallowe'en one and it got sick last spring, belly bloat stick out scales, that's when she lost a couple, inside warm water, she was still fine whenI saw her a couple of weeks ago.. iced over again..

White fish on the other hand show the least bit of stress in my experience. If the water is off, if there's been a loud noise... fluctuations in Ph, just about anything and it shows in their body or fins.

[Mudsow]

So you're saying it's because he's platinum, not because he's doitsu. It's odd, most of his "symptoms" show up on his scales. Pink scales, loss of scales. His skin parts usually don't show an alert. So maybe it is just because he's white.

Or it's because he's my fish and he wouldn't want me to get too comfortable in thinking all was fine every day. He just likes to keep me on my toes :D

Mudsow

[GregBickal]

I think the reason why I like Doitsu so much is that their is no color to hide under scales. Sumi is ALWAYS up (well, most of the time. As you know, the koi in the photo lost its Sumi for some odd reason)

Also, you dont have to worry about them loosing a scale during spawning.

[Jackie Ramo]

Mudsow, it sounds like you have Tweet's cousin in there :-?

[Dayleen]

In my experience, it depends on the fish as to how tolerant they are. Some of the Doitsu are fore sure more sensitive to treatments and even colder water....so it seems anyway. With P.P, you really have to lower the dosage to make it easier for them. If i push the PPM of PP, it's the Doitsu everytime that will let you know that it was too high.

Tom C....NICE FISH !!!! !wow! !wow! !wow!

[Tom C]

To tell the truth I would love to dump the top koi that I posted. As you can see it was only 11" when we added it to the pond. What sucks is this koi is about 5 years old. My wife likes it a lot so she what's me to hold on to it for now to see if it will grow in the new pond. I can tell you I don't think it will grow much now. I will pull it back up today and see it I got any growth out of it since it went into the pond 7/28/04.

Tom

[Tom C]

I just pull the koi up. The koi is now 13" long. These 2" are not good for my pond and that size of a koi. I have a few koi that have put in 7" to 10" in that amount of time. I told my wife I would give it a year with this koi, and I will live up to that, then the koi will be gone I hope.

Tom

[Terri]

I've said this to you before, it's a nice koi even if the growth hasn't met your expectations.... ship it to me in 12months :grin: It can live with my slow growing doitsu sanke ;) (same age and barely 18")

[Jackie Ramo]

Now Tom, you know how important it is to keep the wife happy, maybe you'd better take out to buy her a replacement before you dump this one :wink:

[Tom C]

Jackie she got two replacement koi already.

She said this these two are her's.

http://www.pondpetsusa.com/images/koi/ginrinochiba.jpg

http://www.pondpetsusa.com/images/koi/marujamakohaku.jpg

Terri I will add you to the list for the sanke. :D

Tom

[Terri]

:unsure: Ummmm, how long's that list?!rofl

And yet more eye candy, thank you muchly Tom!

[Jackie Ramo]

Can I get on the list for Goldfinger????? :wave:

[Dayleen]

I have one that is a slow grower too. I bet they are the small runts from a certain spawn that was held back until it was big enough to get sold. Basically mixed in with other Koi of the same size but much younger. Kinda like there are toby in each spawn...there are these runts as well.

Maybe this is what some people are trying to sell as a "new" miniature Koi.

At any rate....yours is a nice Koi...even if it is small for it's age. I love the last 2 in your post as well....you have good taste.

[Jackie Ramo]

I wouldnot be surprised that if in the future that smaller koi will have their own section in shows. People want koi, but they have smaller ponds so smaller koi are welcome. Let's face those folks out number the large pond folks so as soon as some one can find a way to market small koi he will make a fortune. :-?

[Tom C]

Dayleen me having good taste. !rofl It's my wife that has it. Look what she picked out of the group of humans. :lol:


Well I think my wife was drunk and she needed glass when we got married. I'm the lucky one not her. I have to say I think I have the best wife out. Anyone that would put up with me, must be the best.

To tell the truth Terri I have a few local people that told me they want it. One said he would give me $300.00 for it. I told another person that and they said they would do better than that. If we do move it to a new pond I will let them bid on it and all the money will go to a good charity to help others that need it.

Tom

[Terri]

What a great idea Tom! If I were closer I'd bid too...

BTW your modesty is "cute" ;-)

[Busy B]

Did you see the Doitsu Chagoi on NI? The author called it a Chocolate Chip Cookie..kind of odd looking..Believe it was a fish entered in the San Deigo show..

[Dayleen]

Tom C.....you're sooooo sweet .... what nice things to say about your wife!! Of course you'll never live it down with the guys but who cares....you have every woman on your side now !rofl Let's face it, woman rule the world :D

[Busy B]

How's that go...if Mama ain't happy, nobody's happy :smile:

[Jackie Ramo]

You take care of Moma, Moma takes care of you - Chicago ;)

[Terri]

Did you see the Doitsu Chagoi on NI? The author called it a Chocolate Chip Cookie..kind of odd looking..Believe it was a fish entered in the San Deigo show..I did, interesting fish... looks like choc-chip cookie dough - Tipsea at NewtCity posted a photo of one of her koi babies that was similar.