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Tom C
03-05-2005, 08:20 PM
The question was asked on Koi Vet, Is calcium montmorillonite the same as calcium bentonite?

Yes they are the same. Here's something Chris Neaves wrote about calcium montmorillonite and calcium bentonite.

The description of montmorillonite is :- one of a number of clay minerals within the Smectite Group. It forms by weathering or hydrothermal alteration of other aluminum-rich minerals, and is particularly common in altered volcanic ashes called bentonites. The description of bentonite is :- a native, colloidal, hydrated, non-metallic mineral of the Smectite Group that is primarily composed of the mineral montmorillonite.
And further - Montmorillonite is a member of the general mineral group - the clays. It is the main constituent in a volcanic ash called bentonite.

One of the confusing aspect of commercially available montmorillonite clays is the use of two names for exactly the same mineral.

Montmorillonite clays are bentonite clays and bentonite clays are montmorillonite clays. They are not two separate minerals as we think. They are one and the same thing. All types of bentonite clays are grouped together under the Montmorillonite or Smectite group of clays. To speak of one is to speak of the other.

Marketing of various brand names using the different terminology for the same thing, in the same text, is often responsible for the confusion that arises.

Montmorillonite was named after its discovery locality, Montmorillon, France in the 1800's. Bentonite was named after Fort Benton, Montana, near which it was discovered.

It is typically white, grey, or buff in colour but may have tints of yellow, pink, or blue. Montmorillonite has a pearly or dull lustre and is translucent. Montmorillonite clays are mined in various parts of the world. Deposits are found in Italy, Greece. Cyprus, the Philippines, South Africa, Brazil, England, Japan, Romania, Germany, Mexico, Argentina, Spain, India, Hungary, Poland, Canada, Turkey, Florida, Georgia, Illinois, and Texas.

Various purities are found in different regions. In some parts of the world montmorillonite clays were formed during the Jurassic period many millions of years ago. Others originate from later periods. Just like all minerals in the earth, the quality of the deposit will vary from area to area and country to country. Whilst some are of excellent quality others are not very pure.

Because montmorillonite clay is used as a human health food as well as in the fish industry, claims by health experts make interesting reading. An average mineral analysis of Montmorillonite by health experts demonstrate it contains no less than 67 minerals, including vital trace minerals. Recently it has been recognized and utilized by the cosmetic industry and by soil experts, who value it as an exceptionally good agricultural enhancement: crops grow faster, taste better, and are more resistant to disease.

Montmorillonite contains a balance of minerals in their natural colloidal form, making it easily assimilated. The minerals present in montmorillonite enhance the production of enzymes in all living organisms.

Some deposits contain only 30% - 40% of its base elements (montmorillonite). This is considered a low grade in the mining industry. In order to improve the grading (purity) some products have to be refined or processed. The other 60% - 70% of unwanted material has to be removed. Only after refinement does it achieve a 80 or 90% purity as claimed. Montmorillonite are naturally mineral rich clays, formed many millions of years ago under certain geological conditions - therefore, it appears that some products have a percentage of minerals added to bring the quality up to an acceptable level.

There are several forms of montmorillonite available on the market. Some products are a pure montmorillonite clay. Others are a less pure form and have to be processed to remove and eliminate impurities they are mined with. Some claim to have bacteria additives. Some may have additives to the clay such as extra minerals, above what is naturally found in the clay. Whilst others are a montmorillonite clay / zeolite powder formulations.

Montmorillonite clays, depending of the chemical composition and purity, enhances water quality, replenish and enhance minerals and remove certain unwanted wastes. The uses and benefits go further than this. Montmorillonite improves the lustre and skin quality of koi as well as heightening the colour. Added to food it is claimed to aid digestion and increase the koi’s ability to assimilate the vitamins and minerals required in their diet.

Some claims are made that organic waste such as DOC will be removed from the pond. The ionic exchange capacity is increased. i.e. The scum on the pond can be reduced and perhaps eliminated by using Montmorillonite.

The idea that Montmorillonite clays could be used in the remineralisation of ponds originate in Japan. Natural mud ponds are lined with bentonite to seal them. It was also discovered that feeding small quantities to koi and occasionally bathing then in it or adding regulated dosages to the pond resulted in wonderful and significant effects on their colour and lustre. Montmorillonite can be easily added to your daily ration of food. This is an excellent idea as it will replicate the koi feeding continuously off minute mineral rich particles on the floor of mud dams.

By treating Montmorillonite with soda ash, the meta-bentonite Sodium Bentonite, can absorb water and swell to about 20 times their dry volume and give rise to permanent suspensions of gellike masses. The sub-bentonites, containing calcium become Calcium Bentonite or Montmorillonite, do not swell to this extent but are still capable of absorbing from their surrounding at a phenomenal rate and contain as many minerals as Sodium bentonite. Calcium bentonites are nonswelling and break down to a finely granular aggregate that is widely used as an absorbent clay.

Bentonite/Montmorillonite is used to seal dams, in bonding foundry sands, asbestos, and mineral wool, as drilling muds, in portland cements and concrete, ceramics, emulsions, insecticides, soaps, pharmaceuticals, and paints, in the manufacture of paper, for clarifying water, juices, and liquors, and as a water softener to remove calcium from hard water, removing colour from mineral and vegetable oils, also used as catalyst supports and absorbents in petroleum refining.

The montmorillonite minerals are composed of hydrous aluminum silicates in the form of extremely small particles. They take up water between their layers, causing swelling, and change the interlayer spacing according to the mineral variety. In addition to being involved in inorganic exchange reactions, they react with and absorb some organic liquids, such as amines, glycols, glycerols, and other polyhydric alcohols.

For the koi hobbyist montmorillonite is used directly in the pond water each week in the recommended dosage. Some types disperse more easily than others. Some have to be mixed with water before application whilst others can be sprinkled directly onto the pond surface. The pond will clear in about 6 - 10 hours, depending on the amount of organic material in the pond, but the montmorillonite will remain active. Do not be worried in a new pond if the water does not clear in a day or two.

Dosages for montmorillonite:

Use the recommended dosage on the packet of the product you have bought. I use 10 grams per 1000 litres (about a heaped teaspoon) twice a week.

But I must relate a story.

About a year ago I was using some montmorillonite on the pond and I left the opened packet with about a kilogram in it at the edge of the pond.

The family Doberman did the right thing by examining this unknown object and the packet was pushed into the pond. So I had an instant dosage of about a kilogram of montmorillonite in 20000 litres of water.

The results: The next day the pond was stunning. Absolutely crystal clear. The fish were happy - they had not even flashed or tried to escape the montmorillonite cloud advancing on them in the pond. Interestingly - where the montmorillonite had fallen to the floor of the pond (only 80cm deep by the way) and formed clumps, the algae died there a day or two later.

So to be quite candid the dosage I use is often higher than one teaspoon per 1000 litres. However, if you use montmorillonite more than once a week keep to the lower dosage.

I also tried this method of eliminating long blanket weed type algae on the floor of a pond of a friend of mine some years ago. The system was shut down so the water became still. Coarse salt was thrown into the pond as though we were throwing fertilizer on a field. The salt was allowed to sink to the bottom and lay in the algae for several hours. The system was then started up - and a day or two later the algae died.

The Calcium Bentonite would work the best (does not clump as much as sodium bentonite). Although both work very well.

Chris Neaves

Tom

Terri
03-05-2005, 10:02 PM
Great article Tom, thanks for Posting Chris's words. Learn something new every day ;-)

Jackie Ramo
03-05-2005, 10:42 PM
Tom, I thank you as well.

Perhaps we could have a discussion of the merits of different types of clay, or is there a difference from them.

I bought my clay at a foundry. It cost 18.00 for 50 lbs. I've been extremely happy with the results but would like to hear what types of clay they are using and what benefits or not they are experiencing.

Tom C
03-05-2005, 10:54 PM
Jackie is their a difference in calcium bentonite clays? I would like to know what you think.

Tom

Jackie Ramo
03-05-2005, 11:00 PM
Now Tom, my dalrin' don't be going posting the question back to the questioner... I have only used my foundry clay and am happy with it, what have you used? If you usd any, what kind and were you happy or not. What difference did you see?

For myself at a good several handfuls I see a difference in water clarity the next day or so. It has not killed algae of any kind. The fish seem happy but they are mutts so... its hard to tell but they do have a nice shine and sparkle. :frisbee:

Tom C
03-05-2005, 11:18 PM
I have used or tested just about every calcium bentonite clay out. I will take some pictures for you and you can tell us if their is a difference. As you will see yes their is. I have one brand of calcium bentonite clay that doesn't mix well at all. This is something you don't want to use. Some clays can cloud the pond for hours if not a day. I myself would want this in a pond that you want to show off.

Each calcium bentonite clay has a different chemical composition. So they are not all the same.

Here's a thread off of Koi Vet. Take the time to read it, JR posted some interesting info.

http://www.koivetforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=14902

Tom

Jackie Ramo
03-06-2005, 02:05 PM
Let's look at some clays

Here are two different ones, level teaspoon in a glass mixed.

http://jackieramo.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10001/normal_Claytest2.JPG.jpeg

same clays different view

http://jackieramo.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10001/normal_claytest1.JPG.jpeg

I can see a difference. Can you see a difference?

Tom C
03-06-2005, 02:27 PM
Jackie if I send you a pictures can you resize it for me and post it? I have to reload a program in my computer to resize them. This pictures will show all calcium bentonite clays are not the same. The picture I have for you is of a mud like calcium bentonite clay. It doesn't mix well at all.

Tom

Jackie Ramo
03-06-2005, 02:32 PM
Here are 2 more clays to look at.

http://jackieramo.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10001/normal_DSCN2343.JPG

same clay different view
http://jackieramo.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10001/normal_DSCN2342.JPG

Fourth clay
http://jackieramo.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10001/normal_DSCN2345%7E0.JPG

http://jackieramo.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10001/normal_DSCN2344%7E0.JPG

Tom C
03-06-2005, 02:32 PM
I was able to resize it. As you can see it doesn't mix well.

http://www.pondpetsusa.com/images/koi/clay2.jpg

So, no all calcium bentonite clays are not the same.

Tom

Jackie Ramo
03-06-2005, 02:34 PM
I vote no on number 5 Yuck!!

Jackie Ramo
03-06-2005, 02:37 PM
Although not all clays are equal in the mix department how can one really tell if the clay they are adding is a good clay. As you can see, both clays I have on hand mix great have no dark lumps...

Tom C
03-06-2005, 02:38 PM
Is that milk in the last glass Jackie?

Tom

Jackie Ramo
03-06-2005, 02:43 PM
No it is clay, a nice white clay, very fine.


porcelain.

Jackie Ramo
03-06-2005, 02:47 PM
So, just because a clay mixes well together and is fine, is it something we want to add to the pond? Look at the settlement in the picture and how the porcelain clay has swollen up....

Terri
03-06-2005, 05:40 PM
Is that kitty litter Tom?

I don't believe all clays are "created equal". As Chris points out, clays coming from different geological areas will be different in their make-up. The refining process can strip away minerals and impurities... so the manufacturer needs to add back what is lost - and what is added would depend on it's intended use, no?

Unrefined (pure)clays are left with any impurities it may have intact, you would need an analysis done to determine what those are and if they are beneficial or not to our water and koi/fish. Over all I don't see that being an issue...

But really, clay is clay... what levels of minerals. etc., is in the clay depends on where it is mined.

Jackie Ramo
03-08-2005, 10:03 PM
One of the clays I used was procelain clay from pottery and the other clay was from a local foundry, neither of these clays were 'koi clay' yet I have been using the foundry clay with good results for over 2 years now. I consider it to be like a vitamin additive so if it has a percentage of this or that it has never seemed important to me.

Luke, I believe, said that pottery clay was ok for koi. Certainly its food safe for humans, certainly it won't hurt the koi but it didn't look that good for the filters.